Will Robinson, also known as Akuna is an outdoor lover and thru hiker who has hiked 3 of the longest trails in the US, which includes the Pacific Crest Trail, the Appalachian Trail, and the Continental Divide Trail, which makes him a Triple crowner of hiking. In Episode 2, Akuna and Grizel discuss the effects of racism on Akuna’s mental health, living with PTSD, and how people with mental health challenges are often assigned a negative stereotype. They also discuss how racial injustice stems into everyday living, including his safest and happiest place-Nature.
Will Robinson, also known as Akuna is an outdoor lover and thru hiker who has hiked 3 of the longest trails in the US, which includes the Pacific Crest Trail, the Appalachian Trail, and the Continental Divide Trail, which makes him a Triple crowner of hiking.
In Episode 2, Akuna and Grizel discuss the effects of racism on Akuna’s mental health, living with PTSD, and how people with mental health challenges are often assigned a negative stereotype. They also discuss how racial injustice stems into everyday living, including his safest and happiest place-Nature.
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Mental Health Resources for BIPOC:
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Underneath It All is produced and hosted by Grizel.
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Theme music is by Passiflora.
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Podcast cover artwork designed by Hailey Hirst.
Grizel (00:00:26):
My name is Grizel, and this is Underneath it All. A podcast that tells the stories of everyday people who have, or currently are experiencing mental health difficulties and how the outdoors has influenced them. Although I am a therapist, these conversations should not be confused as therapy sessions, but instead open conversations about mental health. My hope is that through these stories, you can have a better understanding of others around you learn to accept and fully embrace your own narrative and to continue breaking the negative stigma that has engulfed mental health.
Akuna (00:01:03):
I'm always in survival mode. I'm always waiting for something to happen. Always even going to something like Walmart I'm in straight fight or flight. It's like when I go to like crowded places, I have to know where potential threats are. It's like, Oh, this big guy here. And it looks like he's two 50 and solid or Nope, that woman looks like she got kicked my ass. I need to know where they are now. I don't, if they're behind me, that's the problem. The last time I actually felt safe and relaxed without thinking about a lot of things or being on guard. Um, wow. See, you got me thinking now
Grizel (00:01:49):
This is, will Robinson also known as a Akuna he's an outdoor lover and through hiker who has hiked it three of the longest trails in the U S this includes the Pacific crest trail, the Appalachian trail and the continental divide trail, which makes him a triple Crowner of hiking. If you're not impressed by the 7,900 miles of hiking Akuna has covered, I'll have, you know, that more people have been to outer space and have completed the triple crown being a through hiker myself. I feel like we have a few things in common. For example, our ambivalence, we feel in regards to hiking the Appalachian trail, which I actually just completed this past summer.
Akuna (00:02:29):
You listening in and you love the AT, you know, this is our opinions because I really did not let the 80, you know, I kept comparing it to the PCT, which was a no go. Once I stopped comparing it to the PCT, I started to enjoy my trip. I was a spoiled, I learned hiking on the West coast where there's trails, there's switchbacks. And when you bust your butt and there's a reward at the top with this awesome view. And then when you get to the 80, when you did, when I did have viewpoints, overcast, you know, or it's rainy and you don't want to stop, you know, so it wasn't my favorite of the big three at all.
Grizel (00:03:14):
I I'm so glad that we did it, right. Don't you feel so accomplished though, because it's sucked so much.
Akuna (00:03:23):
I'm glad I did it because it was a good plate, different experience. You know, I had no outdoor background when I first started hiking. So the only thing I knew about hiking is the Pacific crest trail. All hiking is like this, but when you come to the AT you learn day one at Amicalola, this is not the same. There is different types of hiking. Once I accepted that and realized, yeah, this is going to be a new journey, a new experience, it got a lot better, you know, and the people that I was around, they were super dope, but they had, I think that support system, they keep me on track. Cause I did have some days where it's like, guys, there's a gap that's coming up, probably like two miles. I can go into town and just reevaluate this. You know,
Grizel (00:04:15):
I need to be honest with you all. I was nervous about having this conversation with the Akuna. He's someone I've admired for years because he's always been very vocal about his mental health. Also Akuna is a black man interviewing him and asking for his time and energy is something I do not take lightly as a Latinex person. I acknowledge that I've never gone through the struggles that Akuna has faced. And I recognize that black people should never have to do the labor of educating people on racism. So if you're a non-black person listening to this episode, I have a few suggestions that may assist when hearing this man's story. Let's just take a moment of pause before pressing play, reflect on any preestablished judgements. You might be holding search for any prejudices. You may be internalizing intentional or not recognize your biases, your preconceived notions, and your ego. Be honest with yourself where you're being and the recognition that there's so much opportunity to grow and learn and be transformed. And that actively engaging the acceptance of this takes continuous effort. Then gather up all the compassion, empathy that you have within yourself and lean into that. As you listen,
Akuna (00:05:48):
My upbringing, I grew up way faster than, you know, most of the people that lived there around me, I'm privileged in the that I had a two parent household growing up. You know, my father was military. My mother was an educator. You know, she wasn't teaching. She went into childcare services. She even established childcare facilities for some major companies throughout the U S and she did something when we were living in Germany where I was actually born. So, you know, I had a, a real stable unit, but I tended to drift away from it a lot. You know, I spent summers when we lived overseas in new Orleans with some of my family there. And for some reason I was just mesmerized by just like out, just running the streets. So that meant made me a bit of a troublemaker. But at the same time, I was always an honor roll student, you know, a star athlete, you know, Mensa society honor society.
Akuna (00:06:48):
So I was able to do a lot of stuff without anybody thinking I was out here doing this, that or the other. And eventually, you know, it ran its course, you know, and like most people, I ended up dealing with law enforcement a lot. And it's kinda how I ended up in the army. You know, a choice between military service and jail time. They kind of waited till right after I turned 18 to charged me with a lot of things that probably could have been considered, you know, done as a minor. But after it was all said and done, I was looking at easily between five and 10 years. So I'm sitting in the courtroom, they're listing out multiple charges. My parents are looking at each other, like, what the hell, not our son. When was he doing this? You know, I was very sneaky about what I did.
Akuna (00:07:35):
And uh, some guy that I had never seen before he stands up and he's like, you know, most of this stuff was when he was a miner. He's been working with me on getting into the army. And we want to know if you would allow that to happen. I was looking at him like, I'm not trying to join the army. What the hell is this about? But the judge at that time, he was a veteran. He was a Marine and he basically agreed to it cause he's like, yeah, this is what he needs. He just needs discipline, you know? And he doesn't really need jail time. So if he would agree to go to the military before years will expunges record. And, you know, I took that no brainer and never looked back.
Grizel (00:08:11):
Do you ever struggle with mental health difficulties?
Akuna (00:08:14):
You know, I don't think I struggled with anything with my mental health at that point in time. You know, I, I was more in line with just doing what I wanted to do. You know, whatever I thought was enjoyable at the time I did it
Grizel (00:08:30):
A month before his 19th birthday Akuna entered the army with confidence. His father was in the army. So discussing the military structure was not a foreign idea to him. He was in the army for five years before being medically discharged in 2004, the military has always been a topic that I don't fully understand. There are many negative stereotypes and stigmas that have been attached to the military. So I was pretty surprised to hear Akuna his experience.
Akuna (00:08:59):
Army life was actually great. I loved it. I missed it. Yeah, definitely. I always miss it. You know, you go to a new facility or new installation. You may have that first awkward new person on the black feeling. But within, before the end of the day, you got family members, you have brothers, you have sisters, you have that uncle that always wants to give you unsolicited advice. You know, it's, it's, you know, you bond instantly, you become family quick within like your barracks, your housing areas and stuff. And there's so much structure, you know, there's always someone that's going to be able to tell you where you need to be, which you're supposed to be wearing and you know, what you need to do. It's like it was such an easy way of life without when you're not deploying. It's just basically a nine to five. So the structure worked for you. Definitely. It's always easier for me to deal with stuff. If I know what to look forward to, you know,
Grizel (00:09:52):
It's kind of that control thing, right? Especially with anybody who's ever had any anxiety, having some
form of control, kind of eases that, that stress
Akuna (00:10:02):
It's like, if I know what's expected of me, it makes things easy.
Grizel (00:10:06):
The most difficult part of the army for you.
Akuna (00:10:10):
Uh, the most difficult part was probably, uh, just dealing with the, um, dealing with the way the promo promotion systems and advancement works in the army. That was the most difficult thing for me because it's not based off of who knows how to do their job. The best in the army is based off of a point system. And that comes down to, uh, things like your military awards, your military education, your civilian education, your PT score, your rifle, qualification, those all get assigned points. And those points determine whether or not you can get promoted. And also a military board you would have to do. And a points for like EFI for my MOS would be almost maxed out because there wasn't a lot of us that did my job in the military. So you basically had to wait for somebody to get out the military and then the points would go down to pick you up to promote you and then go right back up again.
Akuna (00:11:07):
So you end up with, uh, a lot of people in higher positions and supervisor like roles that don't know what they're doing. I came, uh, from Korea at this like Colorado for an example. And when I got there, they're a multimillion dollar electronic equipment test facility that I worked out of had been down for like four years. They went to the field in Fort Irwin, California, and they left me there since I just got there. I had it repaired in two days. My supervisor, at that time, once I had to repair it, he came in and didn't even know how to power the system up, but he's the person in charge.
Grizel (00:11:43):
So that, that's interesting that that was the most difficult part for you. I don't hear difficulty.
Akuna (00:11:49):
It always gives me when, you know, you're a hard worker. You do what you gotta do. And everyone else reaps, basically the rewards of it, you know? And I don't like to see people get things they don't deserve. And people who are well deserving, just get messed over by the system. And that's always a difficult thing for me to process, even as a civilian.
Grizel (00:12:12):
I mean, I feel like that probably rings true in a lot of ways, right?
Akuna (00:12:18):
Privilege. I know a particular person, I'm not going to say names like I'll hang out with them and they have dogs and we'll go do things like go to the dog park. And you'll see these signs that clearly say dogs must be on a leash and they will not do it. And it, it drives me every time I see this as like the rules somehow don't apply to you. That's, you're so privileged in it. It messes me up because these are things, especially as a black man, I have to do otherwise, there's going to be a problem. So you know that a deserving this type of treatment or deserving to nobody to say anything to you based off of just your skin color versus mine,
Grizel (00:13:06):
Entitled feeling like I can do this. I will get away with it. Or that, that saying better to ask for an apology
than ask for permission. And you're like, no, no, no, that doesn't apply to me.
Akuna (00:13:22):
That part really sucks. It's like, you've done nothing to warrant this extra privilege or to deserve this special treatment. But you expect that anyway. But the people that are following the rules and doing all it is, you don't want us to end up paying the consequences.
Grizel (00:13:43):
I am ashamed to say it, but I am guilty of this. I have totally taken advantage of the system that was built around white privilege entirely. And to be even more honest, I never even thought about how this could affect black people in the outdoor space, specifically hiking along trail.
Akuna (00:14:03):
I actually think is it's a lot different, you know, it's not just the hiker logistics and figuring out your mileage and carry your gear and all the things hiking. But I also have to remember, like, the way I was raised is like, I have to follow even a mundane is the rules that so many hikers break, like, you know, I'm sure you've seen it. It might be an area you're not supposed to camp it. It is completely off limits. So many hikers that do it anyway and expect me to come along with it. And it's like, I can't do that type of stuff because I've learned throughout my life, the people who have a problem with me because I'm black look for any reason to mess with me. So I can't give them any. So I have to be not just on guard, but I have to kind of be a little extra safe in pretty much everything I do when I'm on trail. And I had to think about everything before I do it. And it seems like so many other hikers that I've met don't have to deal with that. So it makes it even more of a mental game.
Grizel (00:15:10):
Yeah. It's way more of a mental game for you. The fact that you constantly have to be on guard all the time. That is like constantly fight or flight mode and constantly survival mode, which is something I feel like most people don't understand, like what is flight or fight? What is survival mode? So like, do you ever feel like you're not in survival mode?
Akuna (00:15:32):
I'm always in survival mode. I'm always waiting for something to happen. Always. I mean, even going to something like Walmart I'm in straight fight or flight. It's like when I go to like crowded places, I have to know where potential threats are. It's like, Oh, this big guy here. And it looks like he's two 50 and solid or Nope, that woman looks like she get kicked my ass. I need to know where they are now. I don't, if they're behind me, that's a problem. You know, I can't have that. Or if I'm sitting in a room like an office, I'm going to position myself in a place where no know can be behind me. You know, usually I'm in the back or if I'm on the side, I'm going to turn to the side. So I know no one's behind me. I have to be prepared for all of that type of stuff all the time. 24 seven. You know, a lot of the things I do is probably strategic without even, without even having to think about it anymore. It's just Doug.
Grizel (00:16:34):
Hmm. That's sounds exhausting.
Akuna (00:16:38):
It is. It really is. You know, it's, it's a lot to process all the time and it's a lot of stress because, uh, know your brain never stops. It's just always going, you know, I don't think I've had moments in a long time where I wasn't thinking about something 24 seven.
Grizel (00:16:59):
Tell me about one of the times that you actually did feel like you were able to rest for once. One time
you felt safe.
Akuna (00:17:09):
The last time I actually felt safe and relaxed without thinking about a lot of things or being on guard. Um, wow. See, you got me thinking now it was probably in the military and Korea, and that was mainly because, you know, I was surrounded by, you know, my military brothers and sisters and, you know, just like things like racism, do they happen in the military? Definitely. But when you're in a foreign country, it's like, all of that stops you. It's like we're army we're military we're together. And I don't experience as
much drama when I'm in other countries as I do here in America. So I probably would say that was the last time that I was somewhere. And didn't have to worry about it anymore.
Speaker 3 (00:18:08): That's so long ago.
Akuna (00:18:11):
Yeah, that was actually, I was in Korea for September 11th.
Speaker 3 (00:18:15):
That's that's even like, even more interesting that it was not only that long ago, but that was also during a time where there was a lot of chaos in our world. And that's when you felt also the safest too. And it's not in our country.
Akuna (00:18:28):
I've found that I usually thrive in chaos. The more chaos there is the easiest or easier for me to deal with
it. For some reason,
Speaker 3 (00:18:35):
Maybe it's less attention towards yourself,
Akuna (00:18:39):
Possibly. That might be what it is, but the more chaos it is that I'm the one that steps up when everyone
else panics.
Speaker 3 (00:18:47):
I think I'm just sad that that was the last time that you felt safe. How does, I mean, how does that make
you feel like,
Akuna (00:18:57):
Uh, I tend not to really think about it because all of this is pretty much the norm for me. So, you know, to think about the last time where I felt stress-free and my brain, wasn't going a hundred miles an hour. I don't, because this is, you know, my normal, that's an abnormal time for me now.
Speaker 3 (00:19:15):
No one should have to live like that.
Akuna (00:19:19):
You know, I guess, uh, the phrase is we all kind of have a cross to bear and, um, I know I'm not, the only person is like this. You know, the trick to it is, is, you know, you have these things, you just don't let them stop you from doing what you need to do. And that's pretty much how I live, you know? Yeah. I have a whole bunch of emotional baggage at times, or I, my brain does it quit thinking about any and everything, but it doesn't mean that I can't live.
Speaker 3 (00:19:51):
Mm. Yeah. And I feel like you've kind of made it your mission to make sure you live as much as possible
on this area.
Akuna (00:20:00):
Definitely. You know, I spent too many years after the military doing nothing with my life. I don't think I was living. I think I was just existing. You know, I, uh, after the military, I got married for a while, but I think they pushed dramatic stress disorder and all the symptoms made it to where it couldn't have been a successful marriage. So it ended like three years. I came back home to Louisiana. And at this point in time, I didn't know I had PTSD. I was told I was having normal transitioning problems. You know, I was just going through all the motions, drinking all the time, depressed all the time and didn't really know what's going on at all. So when I'm back here in Louisiana, you know, I stayed in my room. Most of the time with PTSD, there are numerous different symptoms you can have.
Akuna (00:20:51):
And I have a, quite a few of them, but one of the major ones at that time was anger. You know, things would make me angry. Like it does everyone else, but I didn't have the ability to calm down. Like everyone else, I would go from zero to a hundred quickly. So it made it to where like a lot of friends that I had at a time, I kind of just stopped talking to him because I was getting angry at them and snapping on them. And on the verge of violence, then later on, when you realize what you're doing is like, no, no, I'm just completely wrong right now. So I'm just not going to deal with people. I only left my house really just to go get black and miles from the gas station or something like that. But I kind of stayed to myself, stayed in my room. And I made myself basically like a little prison.
Grizel (00:21:39):
This is how I feel with depression is like, I, my depression is bad. I want to isolate from other people because I don't want to hurt anybody in that, in that mind space, because what people don't understand about especially PTSD or any type of mental health diagnosis is if I could control it, I would like, you really think that I want to be angry right now. This is a chemical imbalance. I have no control. And the PTSD would lead into a flashback of some sort. And I was dating my new partner at the time when it was happening. And I would just lose my mind and like, just start crying and yelling and push it like that. Push pull, because you're having a moment where you're just like back in time. And like everyone who is close to you is not safe from like, I don't feel like anyone is safe around me. And I don't think people understand that something is triggered and there's a chemical imbalance. And then all of a sudden you go into a completely like, it's an, it's almost like this outer body experience. You know what I mean?
Akuna (00:22:46):
Definitely. I know exactly how, what you're saying. There is like when I'm at my darkest most, and that's literally how it feels like it's almost like, I feel like my depression is contagious. I need you guys to get away from me because it's not safe for you to be around me. Then at other times it's hard to be around people because you know, they can make your mental health more about them. I think that's probably why a lot of us don't talk about the things that we're going through because you start to tell somebody about, you know, being depressed or whatever you got going on. And then boom, the conversation becomes theirs. It makes it even more depressing. Cause it's like, you don't care actually about me. Exactly. I tried to open up to you and you're not listening to anything I've told you. So I'm just not going to talk to you anymore.
Akuna (00:23:39):
I think part of that is my upbringing. You know, as I was taught, you know, you don't put all your business, the streets. Why is that? Because people use your business against you a lot of times. So I was never taught to put all your business in the street for that reason. And because you know, when you do put it out there, it's just going to make you more upset when you find out that nobody cares, nobody cares what you got to say. Nobody cares about your opinion. So why are you going to put yourself out there just to get pissed off? Basically,
Grizel (00:24:30):
I recently moved to new town and I'm in the process of making new friends during a pandemic, which has a plethora of complications, but it is important to me that I do because I always have been a person that cherishes community. And often even at the detriment to myself, as I have attempted to open up to new friends and connections that feel natural, I have also noticed how difficult it is to actually share what is happening internally with myself. Because time and time, again, people feel uncomfortable talking about deep sadness or they want to quickly give their opinion on what you're talking about, or they want to talk about themselves instead of actually being present and listen in everyone's defense. I am a therapist and therefore I'm trained to be a good listener. I am trained to be there for others and to put myself aside. But I think it's also a massive problem that we don't know how to be there for others who are struggling with their own mental health. After sharing a couple of tools that helped me understand those with mental health struggles, I asked Akuna what he thought was missing when understanding others with their own mental health struggles and what he felt was missing after losing several friendships.
Akuna (00:25:43):
At times, when you tell people they want to give you every solution under the sun, like they're trying to force their opinion on you and is like, that's the last thing I need when I'm down is where everyone's telling me, you should do this. You should do that. Or you shouldn't feel that way. It's like, just leave me alone right now. And just let me walk some miles. You'll hear me scream in a minute and then I'll be good to go.
Grizel (00:26:06):
Yeah. I think that's so valid people when you open up, they want to give their opinion on it.
Akuna (00:26:13):
It's like if it was that easy that it was just a solution that you could spit out and it's like, I, I get it. You know, I appreciate people's concern and you want to, you know, help fix what's bothering me, but it's not that simple. You know, most of the things that I go through, I have to work them out on my own, especially because I'm stubborn. So I'm probably not going to listen to what someone else has to say. And you said the big one, at least in my opinion is, you know, educating yourself. You know, like when I first came home, some of the best relationships that I had throughout the years with people where the steroid basically, basically, because they didn't have an understanding of what I was going through. You know, they didn't understand PTSD. They didn't understand all the symptoms, so they couldn't know how to be there for me.
Akuna (00:27:02):
You know? And if you don't understand something, especially when it's mental health, now it gets assigned a negative. It's a horrible thing. It's the worst thing that you could be going through. So their minds start thinking about, Oh, it's PTSD. Let me think of some old war movie and a person with PTSD and what they did. So they're going to have flashbacks and they're going to jump up on tables and they're going to play with imaginary. Rifles are recalling through the mud and people would look at me like that's what they were expecting. You know, even my relationship with my family, the more they learned out about PTSD, the better our relationship got. Cause they understood why I was doing a lot of the things that I was doing. And when you understand something, you know, is it's easier for you to be there. It's easier for you to not be that person.
Akuna (00:27:55):
It definitely-You know, like I know my mother, it probably upset her a lot that I wasn't living my life. And I was just being so closed off and isolated. But once she understood more about PTSD, she knew why. And I think it helped her understand what I was going through. And I think it helped her learn how to be there for me. You know? Like one of the things when people have PTSD is you don't push us. You know, you don't try to get us to do something we don't want to do, you know, forced us to try to open up. We'll do that when we want to, the worst thing people can do is keep asking you things like, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay? Cause you're just making things worse by hers learning and understanding this. It made it to where that became something that didn't happen. You know, it was like one time, are you okay? I'm good. All right. Not going to push the issue anymore. And even something that simple helps a lot.
Grizel (00:28:54): Hm. Because why
Akuna (00:28:57):
It helps a lot because you don't feel like you're getting put on the spot all the time. And you know, when you're asked this multiple times and you don't answer the first time you tell them you're okay. If there is something wrong, it means you don't want to talk about it.
Grizel (00:29:10):
Um, it doesn't put pressure on to open up, but like, I'm trying to think of like what's underneath, even like pressure to open up is kind of saying like, let me be who I am right now because there's a lot happening in my mind. Or even if there isn't a lot happening, but there's usually something processing in my mind. And you're saying like, you don't have to show up right now, which is like you said, depression was like a symptom of your PTSD. D not having pressure to show up is so vital to not like Downing yourself and like putting yourself down afterwards because like, damn I was a Dick or like, at least for me when I, when I'm not doing great and my depression is acting up, I know that I don't treat people with like the most kindness. I'm not like super open. I just like want to be by myself. But then if someone's like trying to like get at me or try to like, want me to be this person that like, yeah, I love being fun and I love being energetic and stuff, but like right now I can't be that way. And I need you to let me feel what I'm feeling.
Akuna (00:30:10):
Oh yeah. I mean, two things happens when people push me like that one, you start to make me angry too. You increase my anxiety level because you're badgering and badgering. And now my brain is trying
to process, what is it that you want me to tell you? So that's when I'm going to start pacing back and forth, maybe a little trimmer and like, they'll just leave me alone for a little bit. You know, even now when I get frustrated, I go off by myself. I walk, I have to work things through and then I can come back to it. Yeah.
Grizel (00:30:44):
Which is such a healthy way of coping by the way. Like, I think that's another misconception is just because I need to be alone and like take my it's okay for me to have anger. I know how to process that, but it's not with your help.
Akuna (00:30:59):
Definitely. It's like when I'm angry, frustrated at anything, it's my cue to take my me time. Sometimes my me time. I have me out for hours sometimes as simple as just walking the block once or twice. And I'm good to go afterwards.
Grizel (00:31:13):
I remember a very specific video of you sharing that you were angry and you were like doing this beautiful dancing movement, but with passion and anger, kind of embodying as well. And you were, you mentioned on it, you're like, I'm, I'm pissed or I'm angry, or I don't know how the actual vernacular that you used, but I thought it was so important for people to realize that it is okay to not only feel anger, but to let that out and like express that with like hate in your face and to feel like absolutely pissed, which is like something I don't feel like most people do. I feel like most people are really ashamed to feel anger. They're like, Oh, I shouldn't feel angry. And they just turn like other coping skills. But like, no, why is, why are we so ashamed of anger? I mean, anger is a secondary emotion, which covers a lot of like sadness and other things, but it is still an expression. Right?
Akuna (00:32:18):
Definitely. It's like, it's just one that's been assigned a negative and there's nothing wrong with being angry. People are angry all the time and they just don't want to admit it. And sometimes man, you gotta let it out. Then, you know, side note PTSD actually affects my memory too. So a lot of times when people recall stuff, I don't remember, but I actually remember this video cause it was during coven and I was in my garage and I was, I can't even remember what I was angry about, but sometimes that's what I have to do or is sometimes say, you know, like hiking is not unusual for people hike with me to hear me just yell. You know, I have my calls, I have my noises. And usually a lot of times it's maybe I'm a little frustrated or a little angry and I just gotta let it out. And that can do wonders. Just getting it out.
Grizel (00:33:08):
Oh yeah. It's so important to get it out. It's like it hides in your system and it of the thing is anger comes out in ways that people don't realize it, but people are scared to feel anger. They think it's wrong. Like you said, there's like this weird negative stigma. Like no hard conversations are actually super healthy. Or if you need to go whatever, punch a bag, whatever you need to do to get that out. That's such a normal part of being a human. Why are we so ashamed of that?
Akuna (00:33:37):
Well, movement and uh, you know, just the, a good yell every now and then, or a good cough is such a great thing. And it saves me so much money cause breaking stuff gets expensive. You know,
Grizel (00:33:54):
The symptoms of mental health illnesses vary from person to person. So part of being a mental health advocate is learning through educating yourself on the illness, active listening, and a ton of empathy. Having PTSD. Akuna struggled with shame in November of 2012 after his mother died from cervical cancer,
Akuna (00:34:19):
It hurt. But what hurt me more was the fact that, you know, as my therapist at the time would say, I no longer have the ability to show all of my emotions. You know, I can't explain why, but like I don't cry no matter what happens. I don't. And you know, I couldn't shed a tear from my mother as much as I was hurting. And you know, it really made me feel like a monster that I had somebody this important to me and I couldn't even express that on my face. And it really, really mess with me for months afterwards. And I don't think I started feeling, I think I went maybe a decade without actually feeling joy until I started hiking. You know, even sometimes it's like with social interactions and things, a lot of times it's me projecting what I know the responses, you know, like somebody says something and they think it's hilarious.
Akuna (00:35:23):
I know I'm supposed to laugh or smile or whatever some going to do it, but it's not an automatic thing. And the last couple of years, some of those things that didn't happen automatically are happening a little more. You know, sometimes I do have feelings that I haven't had in years and sometimes that can be a little rough dealing with it. It's like, what the hell is that? But you know, it's nice because for a long time, I didn't even think of myself as human anymore. I started telling people I was an alien because I'm not like people, you know, I don't think like people, I don't show emotions. Like people, things are affecting me way different than it does the majority of people. But you know, with all this new stuff that's happening, it makes me feel like, yes I am. I am like everybody else.
Grizel (00:36:11):
Yeah. So do you, is that a symptom for you of PTSD? Just the dissociative tendencies?
Akuna (00:36:18):
I believe so. You know, uh, I don't have my, my medical report here, but if I did, I think, I think it's 13 or
14 different, you know, uh, mental health things that are associated with my PTSD.
Grizel (00:36:36):
I think that's just so important to share. It just goes back to just the fact that people don't understand what happens when you have a mental illness. It's a completely different set of eyes. I don't have PTSD, but I can re I can relate to the fact that like when I see something and experience something and I want to get to this tube on trail, I've only hiked by myself. I end up meeting people almost always at the very end, because it's like, I've done this for three months. I'm like, all right, like month four going to make some friends and finish this. So I'm not finishing it by myself, but a huge part of my personality. And the way I think is I feel like a lot of people get close to me and I don't feel close to anybody. I don't know if that resonates with you at all.
Akuna (00:37:24):
That was the way it was for me when I first started hiking. And, you know, because I had closed myself out to social interactions for so long, it was like, I don't want to be around people. I don't need to be around people. But as my first hike started, you know, and I had my trail family, you know, the longer we went together, the more I felt like I wanted to be around these people. It's like, wow, that's an odd feeling. I haven't felt like that in forever. I want to be social. You know, I want to know about these people. I want to care about these people and I want them to care about me. And it was like, you know, so I think my first job, my family taught me how to care about people again and let people carry me. So it was really, really dope.
Grizel (00:38:09):
That's so beautiful. Like you felt something
Akuna (00:38:13):
Definitely something that I forgot. I didn't think that was something I needed anymore.
Grizel (00:38:17):
I'm really grateful that Akuna had that experience. It actually helped me feel more open to letting people into my life without fear, because to be honest, as open as I am and even appear, I'm scared to be intimately vulnerable with people that really care for me, even as close as my partner being vulnerable. And it being received well as a complete risk. And what I also learned from Akuna as that being vulnerable is also a privilege.
Akuna (00:38:45):
It's part of the reason why, uh, like conventional therapy doesn't work well for me, cause I'm not a big sharer. And as mean as a sound, if I don't know you and trust you, I really don't care what you have to say. Yeah. So CLI
Grizel (00:39:02):
Some people don't feel comfortable with a normal therapist, for sure. I mean, and some people like, I mean, for me, I get to such a desperate place where I do need it, like right away I needed available to me. Um, because even though I've been working on my own mental health for, you know, forever, it feels like it. I still definitely have my depression can kind of like sink into my body where I like it's hard to move and do anything. So I need it. But like a lot of people need to do a different type of therapy that works for them being a black man, even more important to be aware of like what you need for your mental health. And there's not enough resources at all for black people in mental health world and black folks go through their own experiences in the same way we have trauma therapy, the same way we have like, um, anxiety therapy. We need a therapy that just works on the effects of racism and the effects of just being a, like being a black man in America. We need something that's just for that. Um, maybe we don't actually, I would like to hear what you think.
Akuna (00:40:13):
I actually think we probably do because being a black person in America, I mean, everyone's seeing is now with black lives matter with the death of George Floyd and Brianna Taylor. And I'm at Avery that we are experiencing things that, you know, like say white people and other people of color don't deal with on the same level. So there needs to be a therapy just for that. I mean, it's like I was watching a video the other day that a lady posted online and it was up her home cameras. She's at work, watching her
son in the driveway play basketball. And you know, I, uh, her son was black and I believe she was white. She's watching him play ball. Then all of a sudden he hides behind a car in the driveway. And she's wondering why he does this. And then you see a police car drive right past the front yard.
Akuna (00:41:05):
And this kid is probably like nine years old, maybe 10. And she could not believe that her son, that young in an affluent community would hide from a police car and it broke her heart. It broke mine too, because I remember the same things when I was younger. And you know, that's something that, unless you acknowledge that black people go through, how do you help with it? You know, it, it is, uh, it changes your mental state. It changes the way you see the world. And, you know, for some, we need a specialized type of therapy to help you get past that. You know, I mean this young man now may grow up the rest of his life with no trust of authority from this, you know, people may want to be there to help him, but if he's there in that uniform fear,
Grizel (00:42:03):
I, I think the thing with like that kind of specialized therapy is, you know, normally like as a therapist, I would look at that situation and be like, okay, this is like a tromp traumatic event for this child. We need to like do some sort of trauma therapy. But the basis of trauma therapy is that that the trauma one is experiencing is less likely to happen again if using certain tools and safety measures, but being a, a black child, you can't assume that in a way that makes me so sad because he has to know that he has to be in survival mode in America because of that. You're not only are you going to be traumatized once you're going to be traumatized again and again, and again, and again, you're constantly in trauma and if anyone's experienced any trauma, just imagine that on a moment to moment basis, you know, like how do you cope with that?
Akuna (00:43:02):
Yeah. You kind of just push it to the back of your head and you try to keep it moving for the most part. And it's sad, but you kind of just accepted as this is something I can't change. You know, it's just, you end up looking at your life and you know, you only have two options to exist or to live. And just existing took me to some very, very dark places. So that, that really wasn't an option anymore. So it's like if I'm going to live, I'm going to do it to the fullest of my ability. I was taught my whole life. And I've been in so many situations where I know tomorrow's not promised to any of us. So regardless of what I got to go through, I'm going to do what I want to do. I'm going to enjoy my life. I'm going to do it the best way. I know how, and you know, hopefully it's going to help some other people do the same.
Grizel (00:43:53):
Why do you keep hiking these mountains? Like, why do you keep going?
Akuna (00:43:59):
I am part of it is, I guess you could say like longterm therapy for me, you know, nature heals me. You know, it, it puts me into that happy place where everything makes sense to me. You know, if you put in the work, you get the miles done, you know, if you carry the packet ends up at the top of the mountain with you. And it just, it just gets me to that point where I'm just pure joy, except for on the, at T when I'm getting rained on all day, then I'm frustrated. But you know, I keep hiking. I'm, we're all never complete. We're all a work in progress. Every time I hike, I learned more about myself. I learned more
about other people and I'm able to use that and put it on my Instagrams and is used to, you know, help other people.
Akuna (00:44:47):
And that's a big part of, I think, you know, our responsibility is to use our experiences to help other people. You know, I mean, like I say, social media, I really don't like social media. I never have been a social media person, but I embraced my Instagram because, you know, I would get messages from people like, man, just that this story, you know, or, you know, your story is it's helped me address so much of what's going on with me. And I started going out in nature and it's been so much healing for me. Thank you for that. You know, if it wasn't for you sharing this, I wouldn't be here. And you know, it's kinda what I've been telling people for the last couple of years. Now, it started off as just being just about me hiking, but it morphed into something to help. So many other people.
Grizel (00:45:54):
I really enjoy listening to Akuna. He's very aware of himself and isn't afraid to voice his tendencies and
how he has figured out ways to take care of his own mental health.
Akuna (00:46:15):
My personality makes it to where it can actually be detrimental big time because I've always been a person where I will put everybody ahead of myself. You know, as long as everybody is good, everything is good. So if I'm going through something and I'm trying to work it out, but someone else is going through something, I will push my stuff on the back burner to make sure they're okay. And you know, what happens is just ends up being more piled on him, more polygon and more a polygon. And then before, you know, it, you know, just depressed, laying in bed all day, not knowing where to start.
Grizel (00:46:51):
Like you have to be able to like work on yourself in the midst of it. The balance is hard.
Akuna (00:46:57):
Oh, definitely. Definitely. As I said earlier, you know, none of us, secondly, we're a constant works in progress. So, you know, I had to learn that, you know, I can't stop the construction of me to work on other people. I can do it to a certain extent, but I have to make the focal point, my mental health, if my mental health, isn't where it needs to be. There's no way I can help this person at that time.
Grizel (00:47:24):
I see. I feel like the most in relationships. Cause that's where I like most people kind of lose himself in this other person. And it often becomes like about very one, very much one person and the other one kind of falls away. And that's why a lot of like divorce and separations and stuff happens is because someone loses themselves or they both lose themselves. You know what I mean? People who are scared to like work on themselves, but are having all these other relationships, like what advice would you give to someone struggling?
Akuna (00:47:54):
You know, I would tell them, you know, I'm not saying that they can't have relationships with people, but what I'm saying is when it comes to your mental health, take your me times. You have to take your
times to just make you the focal point. You know, you can't put all of yourself all the time and then someone else and forget about the things you have going on because they're just going to build up. So, I mean, even like for me, I am, I'm in a relationship, my partner, she knows, she understands, I have to take time for me sometimes. Maybe I won't text you during this period of time. Maybe I don't want to talk during this to player at a time, but I just need to focus on me in order for me to be a good partner. I have to do that at times. And she understands that and I expect the same from her.
Grizel (00:48:44):
It's such an obvious thing. Right. But it's way harder to do than to say.
Akuna (00:48:51):
I like to say, you know, we, you have to have yours, theirs, and then ours, you know, you have to have your time. They have to have their time. And then our time, you know, but it can't always be them or it can't always be hours. Sometimes it has to be me.
Grizel (00:49:08):
Yup. And that's okay. I wonder why like, why do people not do it? Like why is it so hard for people to
take care of themselves?
Akuna (00:49:19):
I think for a lot of people is that, you know, you just get caught up in everything that's going on and you think you're taking the time for yourself. But if you sit back and you reevaluate your day, you realize you probably didn't spend a moment for yourself. You know, if it's like, in my opinion, if you're surrounded by people or if you're a cell phone is going off all the time, you're not really unplugging.
Grizel (00:49:50):
Or if you're constantly busy and you just, you're just like going from one thing to another,
Akuna (00:49:56):
You know what I mean, me time for me, it can be going out to the Marsh by myself and spending some time or putting my headphones on and walking around town or giving me a great, you know, bag of chips on CAISO and binge watching something on Netflix with no interruptions. But these are things you have to have in order to, you know, to protect your mental health and to make sure you're happy. You have to do these things. I'm very, very good now at putting my phone in airplane mode and ignoring emails and everything else. And just taking the time for me, I've learned that if I don't do that, I can't process anything else.
Grizel (00:50:30):
I think most people need that and are not willing to admit that to themselves.
Akuna (00:50:35):
Yeah. That's basically what I see a lot of is people attempting to do self care while managing other stuff. And you know, that means that let's say you're taking two hours to yourself, but you're still talking on the cell phone and you're still texting. And that two hours, maybe you just got only 10 minutes of self care. So when you're stressed in, you're frustrated the next day. That's why, because you didn't unplug
for that entire two hours. You know, you get, you didn't give your body all of what it needed. This one of the things that's cool about sharing the healing that I've had in nature is because, you know, like traditional treatments are a privilege. I mean, so many people don't have healthcare that will provide mental health treatment. Some people can't afford to pay it on their own. So it's important that we have options.
Akuna (00:51:23):
And I think, you know, just going out in nature and taking time for yourself is an, a legitimate option that so many people have the ability to do versus traditional, uh, health medications, or health services, you know, but I can't agree with you a lot. I do believe people are exhausting their list. And I think that's what usually happens before you hit rock bottom. The list I'm talking about is your option slash excuse list. And I think, you know, with the state of America, you know, you're crossing off this excuse, you're crossing off this option, you're crossing off the next one in, they're getting to the bottom of that lesson. That's usually right around the time you're going to hit that rock bottom and you don't have any other options when you have no other excuses. And then you sit there and even wonder what's next. Now, what do I do? And you know, when you get to that state, bad things happen, you just go downhill and you start questioning life at all. So, you know, part of the goal is to make sure people know that there's other options, you know,
Grizel (00:52:38):
Talking with the CUNA and made me realize how much judgment and prejudice that he faces on a moment to moment basis. And it breaks my heart, even though I've experienced the negative impact of the mental health stigma, what he's going through runs much deeper. Being a black man with mental health struggles makes him an obvious target to people who hold these negative biases and prejudices with a clenched fist,
Akuna (00:53:12):
Just because people have things going on in mental health, does it give you the right to assign a negative to it? And the negative connotation that happens way too much, you someone's bipolar or somebody is the press. Somehow, for some reason, to people, it makes them think that they're not a good person anymore, or they're less than a person. And we need to stop doing that because it's not beneficial to either party. It hurts the person with mental health things going on growth, and it keeps it from you being able to understand if you totally believe if you, if you don't, you know, if you assign that negative, it makes it to, to where they don't address their mental health. Because honestly we probably all have something going on and our mental health low we're quick to judge negatively that people who can admit it. So we have to, we have to stop and take that negative connotation of
Grizel (00:54:13):
Thanks for saying that. I agree. I got called crazy a lot. I don't love that word. I don't. I try not to use it. So it's like a triggering word for my, for me to hear that, or like intense that negative connotation to that. What have you been told that as well?
Akuna (00:54:32):
Definitely. Definitely. And sometimes I've said it myself, I'll say, you know, I feel crazy and I tried not to do that, but that's how it feels when you, uh, when you have things going on with your mental health and people judge you negatively or don't understand or get wide-eyed if you mention it, it's like, am I, I
mean, am I this mad person in your eyes? Am I seeing, I mean, when I'm looking in a mirror, I'm not seeing that, but maybe I'm just missing it because I see myself all the time. Do I project negative because of this? Do I seem like I'm going to be in a padded room tomorrow to you? So it starts making you question yourself even more,
Grizel (00:55:16):
Which, and then with someone with mental health issues, like you're already so quick to judge yourself
and if anyone else puts it on you, it just makes you yeah. Like psychoanalyze yourself. Like
Akuna (00:55:30):
The, the, the C word is that one is just thrown out there. When people don't understand something, it's just the catch all for everything they don't understand, you know, it just makes it to where you're hurting yourself and you're hurting the person. That's, you're assigning that word to, you know, but the things I always like to say about mental health, and now I be wanting people to notice the same things I would want them to know about race and, you know, mental health and race, both. It's like acknowledge it, acknowledge that if I tell you I have things going on on mental health or acknowledge the fact that I'm black and don't sign a negative connotation to either that's where the problems are, is when you see my color. And you think negatively because of that color, or if I tell you about me having PTSD, you start thinking negatively because of that identifier.
Akuna (00:56:21):
And that's the things we need to stop. We want to grow and for a mental health, or if we want to come together and have equality is we need to stop assigning negatives based solely on one identifier. You know, we have this great thing these days called Google, where you can pretty much learn at least a little about so many things. You know, especially if you have a loved one that you know, is battling with something, you know, put it in, Google's search it, learn what the symptoms are. Read some blogs from people who are at that point where they're sharing more, who have the similar diagnosis, you know, educate yourself into what's going on, but don't expect that person to be your teacher. My inbox gets for so much from people, a wedding, how do I be a better ally to what's it like to be a black person to, you know, how do I do this or that it's like, you know, I can't teach you everything.
Akuna (00:57:19):
It is that you want to learn and want to know. I appreciate the fact that you do want to learn it, but a lot of this, you have to learn on your own. You know, I can't teach you how to, uh, anything about like white privilege. I don't have it. I see it when it happens, but how to prevent it or how to acknowledge. I can't tell you that is something that you need to do the research and learn for yourself with the climate in our country right now, revolving race and black lives matter and allyship, you know, uh, if you reached out to people in the black community or the black people in the outdoor community, and we haven't got back to you yet understand, we appreciate the love. We see it is we're getting overwhelmed and it's wearing us out. It's affecting our mental health. So it's not that we're ignoring you as myself personally, I'm guilty of this is just a, you know, surrounding ourselves with this all the time, 24 seven, it breaks us down. So we have to take these breaks. We have to take the time to rebuild ourselves is like, if you're angry right now, I imagine how we feel
Speaker 3 (00:58:28):
The effects of your mental health right now are very real.
Akuna (00:58:33):
Oh, definitely. Definitely. I mean, anytime events like this happen, I think the black community, as a whole, we hurt, we get angry, we get frustrated, you know, and we start questioning. Are all these people following him in the now? Or are these people sending me messages? Or are these companies hitting me up just doing it now because I'm black. You know what I mean? I've had people contact me, you know, to want to work with me and things like that lately. And I have to tell myself sometimes it's only because I'm black, it's not about my accomplishments. It's about the color of my skin. And that in itself is racism still.
Speaker 3 (00:59:15):
How does that make you feel
Akuna (00:59:17):
A simple way to say it, it, it frustrates you or makes you a little angry. This is like, you know, I accomplished a lot of stuff in my outdoor career. And now at this point, and it's like for you to hit me up now of all times, it makes me question your intentions. Are you looking for someone that can represent your brand based off of their accomplishments or work with me because of my accomplishments? Or are you looking to tokenize me? And if you're looking to tokenize me, I'm sorry, I can't work with you. It's, it's a bananas right now. And you know, it makes it harder to identify, you know, allies from fake allyship. So you kind of have to pick and choose who you're dealing with these days. You have to kind of do your research, which is also exhausting.
Grizel (01:00:11):
So you're just working all the time right now.
Akuna (01:00:15):
Uh, pretty much 24 seven is, uh, a different request or someone wanting to work with you at email about this email, like about that. But I'm my inbox for my email and for my direct messages is overflowing. Things are old I'm way behind on pretty much everything. You know, as soon as you think you're going to have time to do this, more stuff comes in. So you just get further behind, but it's behind it. I don't mind if I don't get to any of these, like I apologize, but I'm not going to, if I don't get to them, I don't get to them because I'm taking the time for me.
Grizel (01:00:48):
I think that's what I was about to ask you. I was like, and why is that? Because you're taking the time for
your own mental health and you have to choose that.
Akuna (01:00:55):
Oh yeah, it's not that I don't appreciate the love. It's just, you know, sitting there and taking the time to respond to everything or to work with everyone can be detrimental to my growth. And I'm not going to do that.
Grizel (01:01:20):
After this conversation, I did some research about different tools and resources for black people, experiencing mental health struggles in regards to racism, which you can find in the show notes. Also, I
wanted to quickly summarize some tips we discussed in today's episode and how we can apply this to our real life. Number one, do your research. The internet is a powerful tool. And in order to continue to break down the stigma and understand others, we must do the research ourselves. It can be as easy as finding support group on Facebook that focuses on being the support system for the person who has the mental health challenge. Number two, except two, you are, it sounds cliche, but embracing all of ourselves, our struggles and our victories is the first step in dealing with our own mental health. There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, our biggest challenges in life often lead us to our biggest victories. It's okay not to be
Speaker 4 (01:02:22): Okay.
Grizel (01:02:26):
Number three. Therapy is different for everyone. Like a CUNA said seeing a therapist is a privilege and as much as I recommend therapy, I understand that it is a financial undertaking and a big commitment to do that kind of work. Personally, I see a therapist with better help, which is an online app that you can video call, phone, call, or text your therapist. You can actually choose the type of therapist you want to see, which includes gender, race options, as well as specific treatment goals. If you're worried about finances, it's based off a sliding scale. I love my therapist and I'm so grateful that I have the opportunity to just talk to them during these trying times, if you're interested and starting, you can get 10% off your first month by using promo code gazelle. I can't recommend them enough.
Grizel (01:03:16):
Thank you so much for sharing the space with me. You can follow a Coon on Instagram at Akuna hikes to watch his latest adventures and advocacy work. We'll see you next week. So in the meantime, consider leaving us a review on Apple podcast or anywhere else you listen. It's a fast freeway to support the show and it truly does make a difference in helping other people to find us. If you're wanting to interact with more of this awesome community, make sure to find me on social media. We're on Instagram at underneath it all pod and on Facebook, including our Facebook group for community questions, stories, and support, which you can find by searching for underneath it all podcasts. You can also follow me on Instagram at @_grizel_ for mental health Mondays, where I talk about the balance of my own personal life and mental health intro music is created by two person band, which includes myself. You can find our music on Spotify by searching passive flora underneath it all as a production of rebel media. Until next time we're hoping you all stay safe and healthy talk soon.