"I've never been interviewed like this. I wanted to show you all the real me. I wanted to share with you who I was and why I do the work that I do. Because for all you know, I'm just some person who's hosting a podcast about mental health stories in the outdoors. But there's a lot more to me than just my passion for storytelling. And before we dive deep into season 2, I thought it may help you , the listener, to understand why I'm so passionate about this work." On the Season 2 premiere of Underneath it All, Grizel shares her personal mental health story with podcast host and friend, Julie Hotz. Together, they discuss the complexities of maintaining mental health wellness, experiences with medication, and why being aware of your mental health is so important. At the end, Grizel releases new song, "Be Alright," by Passiflora available on Spotify on Monday, November 23rd.
Underneath It All; Season 2, Episode 1
"I've never been interviewed like this. I wanted to show you all the real me. I wanted to share with you who I was and why I do the work that I do. Because for all you know, I'm just some person who's hosting a podcast about mental health stories in the outdoors. But there's a lot more to me than just my passion for storytelling. And before we dive deep into season 2, I thought it may help you , the listener, to understand why I'm so passionate about this work."
On the Season 2 premiere of Underneath it All, Grizel shares her personal mental health story with podcast host and friend, Julie Hotz. Together, they discuss the complexities of maintaining mental health wellness, experiences with medication, and why being aware of your mental health is so important.
At the end, Grizel releases new song, "Be Alright," by Passiflora available on Spotify on Monday, November 23rd.
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Episodes air monthly. Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode.
Underneath It All is produced and hosted by Grizel.
Theme music is by Passiflora.
Additional Music was found by using Musicbed License.
Podcast cover artwork designed by Hailey Hirst.
Season 2, Episode 1: Be Alright
Grizel:
Before we get into this episode, there’s mention of suicidal ideation as well as talk of sexual assault. As this episode touches on topics of mental health including depression, anxiety, and addiction, know that there’s always someone to talk to if you need help. You can reach the national suicide hotline prevention lifeline at 1-800-273-8255.
Grizel:
My name is Grizel and this is the Season 2 premiere of Underneath It All. A podcast that tells the stories of everyday people who have or currently are experiencing mental health difficulties and how the outdoors have influenced them. Although I am a therapist, these conversations should not be confused as therapy sessions, but instead open conversations about mental health. My hope is that through these stories, you can have a better understanding of others around you, learn to accept and fully embrace your own narrative, and to continue breaking the negative stigma that has engulfed mental health.
Julie:
Can you introduce yourself? Tell me your name and whatever identifiers are important to you.
Grizel:
My name is Grizel. That’s how you actually pronounce it, but everyone calls me Griz or Grizel. I use she/her pronouns. I am a writer, an artist, a therapist, a long-distance hiker, and human being. I’ve never been interviewed like this. The morning of, I spent time breathing, stretching, meditating, and grounding myself. I wanted to show you all the real me. I wanted to share with you who I was and why I do the work that I do because for all you now, I’m just some person hosting a podcast about mental health stories and the outdoors. But, there’s a lot more to me than just my passion for storytelling and before we dive deep into season 2, I thought it may help you understand why I’m so passionate about this work. So, I decided to call a good friend of mine named Julie, who is a fellow enneagram 4 and I’ve always felt extremely safe with.
Julie:
I was and still am a “Why, but why?” person living in the gray. We had a garage sale with a sort of neighbor and she was a politician and I remember telling her, I was maybe 9 or 10, and I was like “What if we sell everything at the garage sale?” and she was like “Julie, I don’t live in what ifs, I live in what is.” And I remember as a child, thinking like “Oh my gosh, that sounds miserable to never be able to ask ‘What if?’ and ‘Why?’ and ‘How?’”
Grizel:
Julie is quirky, quiet, and usually wears bright colors. She’s a long-distance hiker and an artist who uses photography, film, and audio to tell stories, connect ideas, and listen to others. An empath, a bridge-builder, and a feeler. She’s cried on planes, trains, trails, street corners, and in stranger’s arms and she’s on a mission to normalize tears. Which you’ll be hearing a fair share of. My story really isn’t easy to tell. Mostly because as much as I don’t want to, I still struggle with a lot of these issues and instead of cutting it out throughout the production process, I decided to share a pretty raw and vulnerable part of myself. Not because it’s a vulnerability contest, but because I want you all to have a realistic image of what this community is built on, which is not perfection or five simple steps towards wellness. Mental health wellness and maintenance is messy and it’s hard. This is my story.
Julie:
Tell me, where did you grow up and tell me a little bit about who you were as a kid and your upbringing.
Grizel:
I grew up in Miami, Florida with 2 sisters at the time. I grew up with a lot of chaos and I don’t really remember much of my childhood because there was a lot of trauma involved. My biological father, not a very good father figure. There was a lot of abuse that went on there. I was really close with my mom, but my mom was in a really dark place too and struggled pretty bad with depression and her own mental health struggles. So I didn’t really grow up with much support except from my grandfather, his name is Tuto. He’s just honestly the OG nomad, I swear, like a lot of who I am is because of him, but he basically raised me until my stepdad came in when I was 10. That just kind of honestly went through another 8 years of pretty significant trauma. I hated my childhood, but it’s also a huge reason why I am the way I am today is cause I kind of had to learn… Learn a lot of these things by myself without really anybody’s help because mental health was not something that was taught, it was just something that was abandoned by my family and I suffered the consequences.
Julie:
And, I’m curious, you know, cause we do change a lot as we grow up, but what do you think are some of the building blocks of your personality. What of little Grizel you carried with you? What has stayed the same about you and how you approach the world even through the chaos?
Grizel:
I feel like what has stayed the same is my ability to persevere. I think that comes from having a very stubborn Latinx family who are extremely set in their ways in a lot of ways. My mom loves cycling more than any person I know and I grew up with my mom bodybuilding and just taking care of her physical health. Also, struggling with her physical health because she was obsessed with it, but watching my mom fight through some of the worst parts of her life and watching that as a child only gave me the motivation to fight for the things that I wanted to. And watching my mom, who came from the Dominican Republic, a completely different country and fight for what she wanted and fight for her kids, really taught me to fight for what I wanted. I don’t take life for granted cause I really recognize how lucky I am to first of all be alive, but also have the opportunities that I do have because I know how hard my mom fought for me and how hard even my step-dad fought for me. That’s probably a big reason why I love long-distance hiking so much is just the fact that you have to push through really, really shitty moments and I’ve never known happiness and I’ve never not known chaos until just this past 2 months and I think because I’ve only known chaos, I just know how to push through it because it’s all I’ve ever known.
Julie:
Were you an introspective child?
Grizel:
Partially introspective, but I just was the kid that asked a lot of questions. I was really bad at the sciences, even though I was a biology major. My parents were not in the healthiest place when I was in college/high school. They’re awesome now, and extremely supportive, but at the time they really, really wanted me to do sciences, but sciences have never felt right because asking “Why?’ gets annoying after a while to a lot of science professors. I kept asking the same like “I don’t understand why this happens?” and they would always be like, “It just is.” And like, that doesn’t make sense to me and I think that’s kind of what draws me to art and mental health. There’s so much space for gray and there’s so much space for truly anything and anyone to take up because art is art and it’s supposed to be gray. And even therapy, as much as it is a science, it’s also 100% an art form and figuring out how to talk to people, how to make someone feel comfortable. It’s all, to me, an art form. If we don’t ask those questions, I think we get stuck.
Grizel:
There is space to ask “What if?” or “Where is that coming from?” or “I wonder what this means?” and there isn’t any shame with asking “Where does this come from?” or “Why am I reacting this way?” I’ve always been very introspective, but it’s only been since I’ve been an adult that I am allowing myself actually figure out why my brain functions the way it does, or why my heart reacts and pulls to certain things and instead of shaming myself and telling myself to stop thinking those ways, I just let myself go there and that’s been probably one of the biggest parts of growing. If I didn’t ask those questions to myself, I’d probably still be extremely depressed and probably not know anything about who I was.
Julie:
Yeah and we all do have different gifts and talents and so you talking about starting off in biology. I think if you had been a doctor, you would have the bedside manner I crave when I go to the doctor. I mean what a gift to be able to ask questions and we need people in this world to ask questions and guide people who, that’s not their strong suit. To like help teach and foster questioning whereas that might be something that I do fairly well, but other people can help me learn stability.
Grizel:
My sisters both struggle with mental health illnesses pretty significantly and I don’t know how I got so lucky that I ended up working on my mental health cause I could’ve been struggling just as much as they have. I craved learning these skills so much because I knew what it felt like when other people treated me like shit and I knew what it felt like when someone else couldn’t communicate their emotions and how it felt to be the receiving end of someone who doesn’t know how to communicate their emotions. And me being the sensitive little bird that I am, get extremely defeated by that and I realize that I never want to treat anybody like that ever and the only way that I could do that was if I started seeing a therapist and actually get the severe symptoms that I had a very young age, which I had… I struggled at a very young age with a lot of symptoms that are consequential.
Julie:
What came first: You starting to go to therapy, or you going into the mental health career?
Grizel:
I started seeing a therapist when I was, I can’t ever remember the exact date, but it was in my teens. It was a Christian therapist and she was actually really good. She was actually one of the first people that said “You should think about being a therapist.” Because I had a really difficult time not asking my therapist questions about herself. I didn’t know I wanted to be a therapist probably until my senior year of college. I was graduating in a few weeks and I was like “What the fuck am I gonna do after college?” My parents forced me to do biology and I was like “I hate this shit.” They did let me choose a psychology minor and so I applied to get my masters in psychology immediately because I was like “Well, I don’t know what else I’m gonna do.” But, also there was something deep inside of me that knew that this was like definitely the route that I wanted, but I was really scared of 9 to 5 jobs. I was scared of committing to something and as a therapist, it’s really important that you know where you’re gonna be cause it takes a while to get all your hours and to be able to get your license and also the fact that like people rely on you for their emotional wellness, you know. So I think I really struggled with that cause at the time I saw myself traveling, but I stuck it out and I actually loved getting my masters. I fell in love with therapy and really quickly realized that I was kind of a natural at asking questions. I knew what I needed to be asked and wished that people asked me, but were too scared and I just didn’t have that kind of fear because I feel like a lot of times people want to be asked certain questions, but no ones willing to ask them. And I’ve always been like “If you don’t feel comfortable about it, you just tell me I don’t feel comfortable answering it.” But to not ask at all, to me, can be a form of silencing cause that’s what I experienced with like, different types of abuses that I had. No one asked me and so I felt silenced for my entire life and to be able to give back in that way, even to like, fast forward to where we are now, like I never want anyone to feel like their story doesn’t matter. It’s such a deep thing to share and I think it’s so cool that I’ve been able to listen to these stories and honestly these stories change me and make me want to become a better version of myself because they’re just inspiring.
Julie:
Yeah, I think that sometimes we give the things we crave and maybe do you think that’s one reason that you are a good listener?
Grizel:
I think I could be a better listener, but I do think it is a huge reason why, that I was able to be a therapist and then also to do this job. When I listen to stories and even when I’m in the session, I really listen to every single detail because even those details may not matter to someone else, but there’s a reason why people share details and it’s because it’s important to them. I just feel like I put myself in their shoes and really feel things out. It’s just so amazing and also heart-breaking what people go through on a daily basis the things that people have to live with. Even just my reality lately has been wow. I live with, actually significant mental health illnesses and that’s a really big bummer, but also if I could control this, I would. I’ve helped so many people and it’s taken me 29 years to finally realize that something more significant is wrong. So to be able to like help myself as well right now has been a really cool feeling. Also, gives me more empathy for people who are struggling with mental health illnesses on a regular and like moment to moment basis, for sure.
Julie:
Yeah, and it takes a long time to peel back layers. Like within ourselves, even though were around ourselves.
Grizel:
I’m so aware of my own mental illness that I feel like I will do anything to help other people become more aware of their own mental health illnesses. I’ve always spoken about depression, that’s something I’ve had chronically my entire life. I’ve never said out loud the fact that I had racing thoughts and like how bad they were. I actually thought it was a symptom of ADHD. 2 months ago I was extremely burnt out at work. I was having, like if I keep doing this something bad to my mental game is gonna happen. And it was like one of the scariest things because I internalized all of it. It was like, very persistent and like, wouldn’t stop. And it created a ton of anxiety because it was me just asking “What if, what if, what if, what if?” It just got out of control because I was trying to do the podcast and I was trying to learn so much and finally, I had a therapy appointment and just broke down crying. I don’t know if I have schizophrenia, I don’t know if I have a personality disorder, I don’t know what’s going on with me, I’m scared. I’m scared of hurting people, I feel like I’m going to hurt someone if I don’t figure out what’s going on with me. I don’t know what’s happening and it was just fucking terrifying dude, like it was one of the scariest things ever.
Grizel:
My therapist referred me to a psychiatrist and honestly as much of an advocate as I am for mental health, that was the one thing I’ve never tried for myself as an adult. I wanted to reject it so bad, but it’s been such an amazing experience. I started my meds in September and have been taking anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds and I feel, I just didn’t know that you could feel, um, peace. That makes me really sad. Um, because I’ve never, I just didn’t know that you could be happy and the world can be falling apart and you can be happy inside, you know? Like, life is still absolutely chaotic, but to have some sort of peace. My depression is almost completely, like, it’s still there, I definitely feel it, but like I finally have motivation. I haven’t had motivation in years. I’ve just had to almost just like “fake it till I make it” kind of thing and that’s another reason why I’m so excited about this Patreon and I’m so excited about this new season. For the first time in my life, I get to do it with a clear head. The last 2 months have taught me this is how it is. Like, you think that you’ve arrived at some sort of mental health awakening, just to learn you don’t ever make it, but you do feel better and some things work really really well and some things don’t work well and I have found something that has really worked well for me for the first time in my life and that feels really fucking good. I think it’s just why I want to help people so bad. It’s just mind-blowing to me that I’ve literally been like this my entire life and I’ve told people, I’ve told doctors, I’ve tried to figure out what’s wrong with me. They give me this bullshit answer and it’s just like, no, what if something is wrong chemically and then also, what if you had so much trauma that you just have to deal with it. It doesn’t have to be the end of my narrative.
Julie:
I think I will push back a little on you saying what’s wrong with you. I have a friend who was talking about the difference of being on and off medication and she was saying “What is the real version of me? Like, which one is the real version?” And I was like “I don’t think one is more you than the other. They’re both you, but they’re different ways of moving through the world.” And I told her, I was like, “I love the version of you that’s on medication and I love the version of you that’s not on medication.” And so I don’t think the version of her that’s not on medication is wrong, but I know that version of her has a harder time of moving through the world and I want the people I love to move through the world as fluidly as possible. Also, hearing these stories makes me be like, “oh I have more layers that I need to uncover.” And other things I need to explore until I get to the bottom of things. You know, working through trauma instead of sitting here like, “Oh Grizel is fixing what’s wrong with her and it just gives me hope,” or like “Oh were learning to navigate this world and also move through a society that maybe is not set up for those who have 1) trauma and 2) who have a lot of existential questions.” So in thinking about this journey, cause it’s like, you have these two mental health journeys at the same time. 1) the one that’s you learning about yourself and 2) helping others. So, going back to grad school, what areas of psychology and mental health, or what forms of therapy intrigued you most? And then, what were your career goals on graduating? And what certifications did you want to get?
Grizel:
I graduated with my masters in psychology and counseling. I did my internship at a psych hospital and worked with adolescents and I loved working there. It taught me a lot about myself, honestly, that I do really get under pressure. It made me be really passionate about working with adolescents and I loved working with the youth. And then I worked at a place called Center Stone, which is a non-profit and it works with marginalized folks and I was a therapist for mostly Spanish speakers and that was exhausting and extremely sad because a lot of them were not citizens so they were constantly living in fear of being deported. Another specialty I did was I worked with a lot of women who had gone through some form of abuse. And then I also worked with substance abuse as well. So, I kind of was all over the place. That’s kind of the great part about community non-profit, but at the same time that’s also what’s so difficult about how community non-profit, is that you’re spread extremely thin. One of my goals after school was that I was gonna do that for a while, but I never saw myself having a private practice. I just thought I would be in community service and working non-profit for a long, long time, but everything changed when over 3 years ago, I had a pretty traumatic experience where I didn’t know what was going to happen to me. And I was sexually assaulted and it was really scary. That night changed everything for me in a very real, real, real way.
Julie:
It was around that point that you decided to take a break from practicing and how did you get to hiking the PCT?
Grizel:
I had that terrible thing happen to me. Extremely traumatic. So, it was kind of that point where I was like “What the fuck am I doing with my life? I can’t live like this anymore.” Like, I’m giving all of these people advice about their lives and I’m not taking this advice myself. Like, “What do I want to do? And if this life can be taken from me just so fast, I better make this count. And I’ve always had that kind of part of me that’s extremely existential and I’ve always been a person who’s kind of obsessed with death. Ever since I was a kid, I’ve been very aware of the fact that we’re all gonna die and that actual feeling of actually dying, or almost dying, brought out this different side of me that I was gonna do whatever I wanted to do. I quit my job in October and decided to hike the high sierra trail as my first trail. The guy that I was dating, I was planning on visiting him. I used that plane ticket… where was it… to Las Vegas and then I hitch hiked all the way up to Sequoia and hiked the high sierra trail and finished on Mt. Whitney and that’s when I realized, I had to do more long hikes and I had to be out in nature more cause it was the first time I ever felt healed. I felt so safe by myself and brave and strong and in my body. And it was probably one of the best feelings in the entire world was finishing that trail. A few months later I decided to hike the PCT and there started my outdoor career.
Julie:
At the time of your sexual assault, were you also experiencing a lot of other paradigm shifts?
Grizel:
Yeah, a lot happened in that 3 weeks. I changed my life entirely. I was living by myself and was paying way too much money for rent in Nashville. I didn’t care if I was a server or a bartender, all I wanted to do was write. And then also, I just really wanted to save money because I knew that if I was going to write I was going to have to be pretty cheap cause you don’t make money at first, right? So, I started just being a server somewhere and then I bought a van for like 1500 bucks and I got Rue, my dog, and we lived in a van cause I’d always wanted to live in a van. I always wanted to have my own dog. I wanted to pursue writing with everything that I had and give it a full chance.
Julie:
When so many things were in flux, you were changing your lifestyle, but like, what were the changes you noticed in your mental health that were not great? And what things helped most in trying to find your footing?
Grizel:
That’s such a good question. My mental health was not good for a while. I was having really bad flashbacks for a long time. I met Eric pretty soon after this all, like 2 months after or something. Which I was seeing a therapist 2 times a week, but when something like that happens, there’s side effects for a while. He was extremely patient. I would have flashbacks like right in front of him and it was really overwhelming for him and he did not know how to handle it and we had so much to work through together. I knew that Eric was someone I wanted to be with, but the only way that I could be with him was if I hyper-focused on my own mental health because I knew that if this relationship was gonna last, that I would have to put a lot more work into it because I couldn’t give him what he needed because I wasn’t giving myself what I needed. I also experienced sexual trauma as a child so it only brought up way, way more. Through my masters was probably the darkest time of my life because I didn’t know that I had sexual trauma. I was taking a course on sexual trauma and had a flashback during class. It was absolutely terrible. That was the beginning of like “Wow, my depression is a lot deeper that I thought it was and it’s a lot darker than I thought it was.” Just experiencing what it feels like to literally not have any motivation to like eat, drink, sleep, anything, and just be completely bed-ridden. Just being paralyzed cause of your trauma. I just knew that I did not want to go back to that place again.
Julie:
I know, I think one of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is investing in ourselves because that’s how we’ll be able to invest in others and heal, but it’s very hard to prioritize. How do I expect to thrive and push into like the next level of work if I’m just not working through the things that need to be worked on?
Grizel:
And I don’t think everyone needs intense therapy all the time. I think that a lot of us have more narratives that we live out more than we realize and even with the amount of work that I’ve done on my own mental health and the amount of narratives that I’ve been able to combat, I still am learning about the narratives that I carry because they come out in other ways. There’s just always something that we can work on to love our neighbors better, to listen to people better, to hear what’s going on in their life, so that I can become a better version of myself. People’s stories are so powerful, but we have to listen to them and listen to ourselves, really, in order to like, love other people well.
Julie:
Literally any skill takes practice and I noticed that when there’s something that I’m working on, maybe at first, it takes a while to identify a problem. Then once I do, each time I identify it, it comes a little quicker and then a little quicker, and then a little quicker, so that bounce back time is faster, so that I don’t let it build up to boiling point. So, that I don’t let it affect other people. So that I can call it out when it’s happening, or so that I give them permission to help call it out in me.
Grizel:
It’s really scary to address yourself and ask yourself these questions. Or let someone ask you questions. Or just have the ability to like, process things that carry maybe ego, or carry pride, or carry shame, but a lot of the reason why I can live with joy and at peace is because I never gave up on myself. It’s truly like, I won’t let someone make me feel like something is wrong with me ever again because of the way that my brain is, but it takes time.
Julie:
Yeah and I think that most people do have some form of trauma and so people that try to negate that, you know, maybe they were traumatized in a way that didn’t allow for vulnerability. Not that that should excuse bad behavior, but I just assume when people don’t respect other people’s trauma, that it’s because they have trauma within themselves. In our grief, in our struggles, we don’t want to be alone. Imagine quarantine if you’re the only person having to do it and you didn’t know of anyone else doing it, how difficult that would be, but knowing that you’re in it together, it makes it so much more bearable.
Grizel:
And we don’t have to be alone in our struggles and grief and I think the power of asking for help to the right people is a powerful thing. I listened to that enneagram thing and um, one of the things that really hit home was my desire to push people away um, when I fell vulnerable, but also how much I need someone to hold me in that moment. With Eric, honestly when he pisses me off, sometimes I want him away, but honestly, most of the time, I just want a hug and I just want to be told that I’m okay and that I’m loved and that I’m worthy and I think that’s the same thing with mental health as well is like, I just want to feel like I can belong somewhere. I don’t have to change and other people around me are also struggling with the same things and they belong.
Julie:
It’s teamwork, you know, and I think we also live in a super individualistic society, but I mean while I do love my alone time, it’s like I can’t make it through life alone. You don’t usually build a house all by yourself. That you also don’t usually build a life all by yourself. When you were on the PCT, since that was your first long distance hike, how did your self-image change on the trail?
Grizel:
I really went into that experience wanting to feel lonely. Like that was kind of my goal, which sounds really weird, but I realized at a young age because of my trauma that I struggled with co-dependency really bad and all I knew was to rely on someone for my happiness, for my safety, for my protection, for whatever. And so, I told Eric, this is a trip for me that I have to take. I really wanted to feel lonely and what that actually felt like without masking my loneliness cause I’ve always felt lonely, right? To not have somewhere to escape with my thoughts was just such a big moment for me. The first few weeks of the trail, my god, they were terrible. They were so terrible. I cried all of the time and was so depressed. I definitely questioned it, whether or not I should be on the trail at all and if I could do it. I just kept getting up the next day. The one thing I knew is that I’ve done hard things and I’ve done really hard things and so I went into that experience knowing, I’ve been through so much shit in my life and this is a choice I’m making and nothing will be worse than what I’ve been through. I’ve realized that writing was everything I wanted to do. I realized that I really struggle with body dysmorphia. I realized that I didn’t have very supportive friends. I realized that this world is a goddamn gift and I wanted to experience it as much as I can. I’ve never done a trail without feeling pretty depressed. I’ve had it my whole life and it’s the only lens I’ve ever known until like 2 months ago. If this is my lens, what beautiful things will I choose to see out of this lens? Little things just started meaning more to me.
Julie:
What about hiking, being in nature, has helped your mental health and what about hiking or being in nature has not helped, or even perhaps hurt your mental health? And you can extend that to interactions on trail, whatever. And I’ll tell you my follow up question to this is: How does people talking about nature being a mental health cure-all make you feel? And what about nature does help your mental health?
Grizel:
So, it reminds me of this story of when I was on the high sierra trail, so it was my first like real long trail and I just got into Yosemite and it was actually day 4 on the high sierra trail, 2 days before I was supposed to summit Mt. Whitney, and I got to camp really early and sat by the river. I was not an ultralight backpacker in any form. I brought like this big ass book and journal, but I ended up just sitting next to this river. I remember sitting there and the sun was like perfectly lit on these flowers, these yellow flowers, and it was the first time that I sat still. I took breaths, as simple as that was, and I just started sobbing, like sobbing, sobbing, sobbing, sobbing… Realizing that nature has a stillness that is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced. It is one of the few things that, whenever you leave it, it’s still there. Like that tree that I sat next to and leaned on is most likely still there and that sort of stability and that sort of grounding, I just felt like you know what, my life is nothing like I thought it was going to be, I’m depressed, I’m sad, I don’t believe in god anymore, that was a huge thing. A huge thing. But at least I have this flower, and at least I have this river, and its gonna be here for a while. I felt that I could be okay for that moment. Nature simplifies a lot of the feelings that I feel inside because my feelings, my emotions, are so intense and they’re so heavy, and they’re so sad, honestly. They’re sad. Everything I think about is often sad and I hate that, but I don’t, I’ve never not had that. It’s all I’ve ever known. But when I’m sitting out in nature the most and I just like, take it in, it’s one of the few moments that I feel like everything is gonna be okay and I don’t feel like that very often. And I think the reason why nature helps my mental health is because it grounds me to the present moment and as someone who has so much anxiety and so much racing thoughts and thoughts about the past, thoughts about the future, thoughts about literally anything. For something to grab my attention and it be so peaceful and magical and absolutely beautiful and also like, how the fuck did that get there? It’s magic. And to experience magic on this earth is something that I feel like religion tried to convince me that was possible in the church and I never felt it and its one of the few things that I’ve felt in this world to be like, at least I have that. I’m gonna be okay even if my mind goes into another panic attack or whatever, like this moment I feel okay. And so I got addicted to feeling more okay, like maybe I could feel more okay in other situations and natures definitely not for me at least, a cure-all. I don’t like when people say that because I think that were way more complex than that, but I do think nature has a way of grounding and I think that with whatever other things make you feel like it’s gonna be okay is magic on this earth. I want to experience that piece of life as much as I can because it’s something that I never get.
Julie:
You talking about the little yellow flowers made me think, when I moved to New York, I was really struggling. I lived across the street from Prospect Park. When spring came, I would just get lost in like, a clump of leaves. Just that alone was so helpful, like you said, that grounding, just being in the present. And just being able to say “I’m thankful for these little leaves.” When it felt like everything was just in flux and unknown.
Grizel:
Mindfulness for me, when I first started looking into it felt like, it felt so silly to me. I’m like ok, yoga, ok, breathing, ok, it’s not that big of a deal, it’s not that helpful. With someone, like for me, who has so much anxiety and racing thoughts. Over the last 2 months I’ve made an extreme effort every day to just take some deep breaths, like seriously. Just like, grounding, because I may not feel ok for the rest of that day, but that moment, I do have and it brings hope to other parts of my day. Maybe, maybe later I’ll go on a walk and have that kind of feeling again, like, how can I feel more grounded and in tune with what my emotions need, what my body needs, what my mind needs, what my friends need, if I’m not present, if I’m thinking about all of these other things. And so practicing mindfulness and through being in nature and through, honestly just turning off my phone and asking myself questions and journaling and not being on social media has helped me tremendously to get to, like a better place of my emotional wellness for sure.
Julie:
I like that specificity about being present, breathing, mindfulness because I know that there’s a big difference between, like a lot of people go “I’m trying to be more intentional.” And I’m like, “If I was any more damn intentional about anything, like I’ll get nothing done,” cause I’m like having anxiety about “Is the toilet paper I’m buying eco-friendly enough.” Being present, that’s totally different in that letting go while holding on at the same time.
Grizel:
How often do you think that people feel present, you know? Like, really? How often do you think people feel like they’re super in touch with their emotions, or in touch with someone else’s emotions that someone is expressing? I feel that a lot in my household because I have an amazing group of friends and support group who are extremely present. They’re never on their phones and its been hard honestly, because I am a person that works on social media and works on my phone and hiring Emily, who you met, has helped me so much to just realize “Holy shit, social media makes me not present at all.” And in fact, after I get off Instagram, my mind races for like 2 hours afterwards. I was reading about like, how long does it take for your brain to slow down and for most people it takes like, an hour at the least amount. Like, I often look at my phone right before bed and like, I should not do that for myself.
Julie:
I’ve found that especially, like this past several months with the news cycles and everything, my attention span, it’s already, like a struggle, but I’ve noticed in the past few weeks that it’s hard for me to pay attention to articles. You know, just reading, like a full article and like “oh my god” like you need to like, throw your phone in the corner and like, grab a book because this is getting out of control.
Grizel:
People are really struggling, but also are hungry for answers, or some sort of like, peace, or trying to find that in social media, or trying to find that in a person that we admire, or the fact that the election is changing. Maybe there’s hope and I feel like people are trying to grab for some sort of certainty. I know, at least, I was when I was on social media as much as I was, I would follow people that inspired me and that’s kind of the way I would justify it. And then I realized that I wasn’t doing any of the work myself. That’s definitely where the good stuff is too, is when we really take time to actually, actually reflect on ourselves and where we are really at, and like how am I actually feeling right now. Which is a hard question to answer, especially if it’s always been difficult for you to express it, but just starting the practice is so valuable.
Julie:
And taking less time to be inspired by others and more time to work on things yourself because I find that inspiration very quickly turns to comparison and then it’s totally counter-productive at that point. I’ve had to un-follow perfectly lovely, wonderful people because I started comparing myself to them too much. And so, it wasn’t like a hateful un-follow, but it was like, I need to separate myself from this because I’m not deleting the app off my phone so at least I can do this for a moment. So, where did the seed for Underneath It All and Mental Health Mondays come from and what were, what are your intentions in creating these resources?
Grizel:
So, when I was on the Appalachian Trail, I did a vlog for REI. You can watch it if you want. It’s just me crying for 3 and a half months, every day, but through that experience, I met a lot of cool people and I realized very quickly that I didn’t necessarily want to be capturing my story as much as I wanted to capture the stories of people who were around me who were sharing their stories with me. And, I thought about doing a podcast for the AT instead, um, just because I think the reason that people go on the trail is always just fascinating. And, a lot of times it’s a journey of self-exploration, right? I started thinking about that when I was on the AT and then when COVID hit, I had to change my plans from hiking the Continental Divide Trail and decided that I would pursue the idea of podcasting. People have created such good accounts and such good spaces for folks who are marginalized and other diverse populations, but I didn’t really see a space for people who had mental health illnesses like I did and being someone who has pretty severe depression and anxiety, but really good at hiding it, I just was thinking about all of the other people who may feel like me. Who also didn’t feel like they had a space to actually be themselves cause when you are someone that has it, it’s like a tattoo on your body, you just have it always there kind of feeling for a lot of us. Some of us it’s not like that, but for a lot of us it is something like, we live with on a daily basis. I got in touch with Gale who is the creator of She Explores and told her my idea. I did not think she was going to be like, “I’ll teach ya how to do a podcast.” But she was just so excited. So the first season happened and it was a huge learning curve. I had to learn how to produce, it was getting bigger and as it was growing, I was quickly learning how I felt in my body when I got outside sponsors involved. I’d never want peoples stories to be seen as not as valuable as they are because I value these stories so deeply. Instagram is not necessarily the safest place for these stories and the reason why I felt that was because I didn’t feel safe sharing my own story on Instagram, so why would anyone else feel safe to share their story on Instagram? I felt safe to a point, right? The community I had was great, but there’s also, because Instagram is Instagram, it’s more of a marketing platform and there’s a lot of trolls and like, anyone can say anything and hide behind aliases so easy. I didn’t feel like I was protecting the stories as much as I wanted to protect these stories. And so, over the last 2 months, with the help of you and um, my friend Emily and also just like, really close, trusted friends, I started brainstorming about like, what mental health leadership looks like, what ethical storytelling looks like. I reached out to some people who were doing it, Nicole Antoinette was one of them, she’s a good friend of mine. Learning from her and seeing how she um, has created such a beautiful support system, kind of inspired me to think about what I wanted this community to look like. I realized as much support and resources I was giving, I also realized that I needed support back and I wanted it to become a more communal and supportive experience for all people who are struggling with their mental health and it be more of this support system and that’s why, when I started thinking about Patreon and looking at the different types of tiers and looking at how it’s private and the fact that people can actually like, share their stories. I think the goal of Underneath It All is to create a supportive community of people who are sharing their honest stories and also, supporting each other and supporting each others stories and lifting each other up. And I think that that’s what this Patreon and that’s what this community is changing into. Hopefully when were able to travel, I really want to be able to do retreats, exploration retreats where we get to be outside, but also ask questions that maybe we wouldn’t get to ask ourselves if we weren’t in that kind of setting. And so, that’s kind of where we want to end up going. Now that I’m just writing and just doing resources, I’m hoping to continue to create a variety of resources through writing music, which I’m so excited to do. I’m excited to start doing Zoom calls with people and just like meet people who are in this community that are like, bettering themselves so that I can be part of their life and they can be a part of my life and we can just talk about accountability. It just excites me to think that there could be a safe place for people who have these struggles and that maybe we won’t feel as misunderstood or, as alone as a lot of us have felt for a big chunk of our life.
Julie:
Do you do any Inner Child work and what’s one thing you tell your inner child and what wisdom does your inner child share with you?
Grizel:
I love those questions so much, Julie, because my inner child is extremely loud. She cries a lot and I am constantly telling her that it’s okay to cry, or it’s okay to feel what I’m feeling. She has value. I really struggle with um, I don’t really value myself as much as I value other people. I’m working on viewing myself the way that I view other people. My biggest goal in life is to see the beauty of myself the way that it’s so evident that I see in people that even mistreat me. Reminding myself that I have value is probably the thing that I tell my inner child the most. My inner child tells me to laugh a lot and to let go. I feel like I used to do that a lot better. I think now, I’m just trying to stay present, right? To just, that inner child is present, that inner child is like, enjoying what’s right in front of them and I think the inner child lets you feel exactly what you’re feeling.
Julie:
Do you think that your inner child is proud of you, how far you’ve come?
Grizel:
That makes me cry. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely is. It’s crazy to think about how far I’ve come. I could’ve chosen the easy route so many times. I say easy, but no route is easy, life is hard. So, but, I could’ve chosen to just continue to compartmentalize and um, just block it off, you know? And I’m really glad I didn’t because of how I feel now, but god it’s fucking hard. It is cool to think about how far I’ve come, but god it has been such a fucking long journey and it’s been so painful and I’m so thankful for all of the pain cause it gives me empathy to hear stories, but fucking hell. I don’t wish that for anyone. Thanks for asking that question. I feel like I needed to be asked that. I feel like I’ve grown so much and I hope that when people hear this, that they feel like they can do anything too cause I didn’t have the best odds to take care of myself, I didn’t have the finances, I didn’t have the support, I didn’t have anything and something inside me just… Those little moments that I felt like I was worthy drove me to continue to believe that maybe I am worthy and I’m still not anywhere where I want to be. I want to be more confident, something I struggle with is confidence and I know how far I’ve come so maybe if I keep trying and I keep working, I can, I can really trust what the inner child wants to believe about itself, you know? Kind of goes back to nature, like when I’m in nature I feel it and that’s why I think I go to nature so much. I feel like my truest self a lot of times and then I also, I think that’s why I’m also attracted to people like you and therapy is because this feeling that I have right now even, I’m like sobbing in this fucking closet. At least I’m being honest, at least I’m not lying to myself like I used to. Like, in the past I used to fake pass out, like I had psychosomatic symptoms. Like I was so desperate for attention and for love and for something, joy, that I would do absolutely anything for it and to know that it was inside of me the whole time. And that it’s still inside of me and that that’s why I’m even, I’m being interviewed for this podcast. This is almost my way of feeling like okay, like yes Grizel, you are also, you are also worthy and your story is worthy and it is just like full circle, you know? This is so intense.
Julie:
There’s a place in the Sierras that my inner child and I go to meet and like, for so long it was always me comforting her and then I remember the day that she told me that she was proud of me and it’s just like “woo, woo, woo” just like, all the feelings and then the tears and… So much in life squashes the things that we do know about ourselves that are just like buried so deep inside and it’s like, I still have to like get quiet, be present, go outside, like breathe and shut my eyes to like, hear that little voice.
Grizel:
I also think, on top of that though, is like to surround yourself with people who make you feel like the inner child is important. Don’t be around people that make you feel like shit. If someone’s making you feel like shit, then they’re probably not worth your time. If they make you feel shamed for your feelings, they’re not worth your time and I just spent so much of my life surrounding myself to try to fit what everyone in society has told us to act like, that we’re supposed to have our shit together and supposed to be these, almost robots. If you are shamed for expressing your feelings, or expressing what’s actually happening… I guess all I’m trying to say is that I spent so much of my life around people I was just trying to like, fit in with and they never knew anything that was actually going on and when I would share about it, they didn’t care, or they didn’t want to educate themselves on how to care. And I just feel like everyone deserves people in their life that care. And I, and I really care about people and I never want people to feel like how I did for most of my life cause it’s so lonely and it’s also like hopeless in there and there’s so much hope when you start like, taking care of yourself. There’s so much hope here and it’s gonna be okay.
Grizel:
Before we go, I have one more thing for you. A couple weeks ago, my friend Ben and I, who’s the other half of our band, Passiflora, wrote and produced a song called “Be Alright,” which is an honest, raw song about a lot of what we talked about in this episode and the year 2020. And I thought, “What the hell? Why not share it with you all.” So here’s a part of my heart, called Be Alright.
“Be Alright” by Passiflora plays during the exit.
Grizel:
Well, that’s the episode. Thank you all for supporting and listening. I want to give a warm, special thanks to Julie, who continues to hear me and sees me with endless love. Thank you for being the person I can trust throughout this process. You can follow her and her creative endeavors @julieahotz. Real quick, I wanted to tell you a little more about the resources and bonus episodes that will be released on my Patreon. Every month we will be choosing a theme to focus on and in just 1 week, we will be releasing a bonus episode that will be discussing family relationships and boundaries to get you through the holidays. You can find that and so much more on my Patreon: www.patreon.com/grizelcaminas. Well, that’s the episode, so in the meantime, consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or anywhere else you listen. It’s a fast, free way to support the show and it truly does make a difference in helping other people find us. And, if you’re wanting to interact more with this amazing community, you can find us on social media. We’re on Instagram @underneathitallpod and on Facebook, including our Facebook group for community questions, which you can find by searching Underneath It All Podcast. You can also follow me on Instagram @_grizel_. For Mental Health Mondays, where I talk about the balance of my personal life and mental health.
Grizel:
Theme music was created by Passiflora, which is our band and you can find that music on Spotify by searching Passiflora. Thanks for being here. Until next time, stay safe and we’ll talk soon.