Season 2, Bonus Episode 1 Hosted by Grizel Caminas In the first Bonus Episode for Underneath it All, Grizel and Lauren discuss what family boundaries look like in a time of COVID and the holiday season. They go over questions like how to communicate our mental health needs when visiting family, how to have conversations with family about not going home for the holidays, and much more. Lauren Walther, LCSW/LCDC, currently lives in Austin, TX with her husband, baby and doggie. She works as a program director at Driftwood Recovery, which is a dual-diagnosis residential treatment center. She is particularly passionate about providing comprehensive therapy for families whose lives have been impacted by addiction.
Underneath It All Show Notes
Season 2, Bonus Episode 1
Hosted by Grizel Caminas
In the first Bonus Episode for Underneath it All, Grizel and Lauren discuss what family boundaries look like in a time of COVID and the holiday season. They go over questions like how to communicate our mental health needs when visiting family, how to have conversations with family about not going home for the holidays, and much more.
Lauren Walther, LCSW/LCDC, currently lives in Austin, TX with her husband, baby and doggie. She works as a program director at Driftwood Recovery, which is a dual-diagnosis residential treatment center. She is particularly passionate about providing comprehensive therapy for families whose lives have been impacted by addiction.
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Underneath It All is produced and hosted by Grizel.
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Season 2, Bonus Episode: Family Boundaries
Grizel:
My name is Grizel and this is Underneath It All. A podcast that tells the stories of everyday people who have, or currently are experiencing mental health difficulties and how the outdoors have influenced them. Although I am a therapist, these conversations should not be confused as therapy sessions, but instead, open conversations about mental health. My hope is that through these conversations, you can have a better understanding of others around you, learn to accept and fully embrace our own narrative, and to continue breaking the negative stigma that has engulfed mental health.
Grizel:
Welcome to the first ever bonus episode, which will be released once a month. Normally, these bonus episodes will only be available for Patreon members, but because this is our first one, I wanted to give you all a sneak peek into what these bonus episodes are going to be like. So, today as we’re approaching even more holidays, we’re gonna be talking about family boundaries. Which, personally, I’ve struggled to maintain throughout my entire life. Before we dive in, I wanted to encourage you all to consider abiding by the CDC guidelines, which encourages to celebrate with people who you already live with. If you do end up attending a holiday gathering, go to www.cdc.gov to check out tips to help slow down the spread of COVID and to be mindful of others. Now, without further ado, I’m excited to introduce my new friend, Lauren Walther. Lauren received her masters in social work from Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts in 2011. After graduation, she pursued further clinical training as a post-graduate social work fellow at the Menninger Clinic in Houston, Texas on the Professionals and Crisis Unit. In 2012, she became a licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor to better serve the needs of clients with addiction issues. Lauren currently lives in Austin, Texas with her husband, baby, and dog. She works as a Program Director at Driftwood Recovery, which is a dual-diagnosis residential treatment center. She is particularly passionate about providing comprehensive therapy for families whose lives have been impacted by addiction. So let’s get to the interview.
Lauren:
So, I’m Lauren Walther. I’m a licensed clinical social worker and a licensed chemical dependency counselor living in Austin, Texas and I, right now, have a private practice and I’m also a Program Director at the treatment center that treats dual-diagnosis, so substance use and mood disorders.
Grizel:
And how do you like working in the areas that you’re working in right now?
Lauren:
I find it thrilling, um, and it’s, you know, and I think about what I thought I wanted to be when I grew up, or something like that. Rather than like, the job role, it’s sort of, it’s the type of thing where it’s different every day, you’re meeting the most fascinating, interesting, resilient, powerful people who are struggling to form a life worth living. I work alongside brilliant people with such big, compassionate hearts, so I feel pretty lucky that I landed in the spot that I’m in.
Grizel:
What type of therapy do you do with families?
Lauren:
As part of my role as Program Director, I’m the person that coordinates the experience for our families. Families are so often neglected in the process of addiction treatment, which is bananas because we know from research that having the family in the supportive role and in their own recovery process, that actually helps people’s outcomes in terms of being able to stay sober. So, I facilitate a family webinar, I do a lot of family coaching, meaning like, I have separate sessions with the family members to educate them, to get them into their own recovery process like, connecting them to their own support groups, working with them on communication, getting in touch with their own values, but a lot of that is how to negotiate boundaries because boundaries get totally out of whack with any kind of chronic illness. Addiction is no different and so boundaries get totally out of whack and so, I work a lot with the families, kind of bringing them back towards, what I would call, disordered attachment. Even if you’ve had a healthy attachment with the person before a healthy relationship, chronic illness makes it disordered, so how do we get it back to healthy attachment again.
Grizel:
That’s so interesting. So, with people who struggle with addiction, trying to get back into that healthy attachment is a long process it sounds like. With your expertise on just family boundaries I’m thinking a lot about my personal family. I love my family so much, but I struggle with having boundaries in the midst of a pandemic and so, I guess my first question is: How do you have conversations with your family about not going home due to COVID and if you are going home, what does that process look like to ensure that everyone feels safe?
Lauren:
With any kind of boundary work, the first step is to like, get centered in yourself. If you don’t know what you want, or need, or prefer, then like, how would you know what to ask for, or what to express? And so, sometimes that can, like, that’s what I think a lot of therapy is about frankly, is to get a person connected with themselves again, so that they’re able to determine like, how do I engage in my relationships in a way that feels safe and good and fulfilling for me. So, first step, figure out what you want. When I think about boundaries, boundaries are on a spectrum from rigid, flexible is in the middle, we want to be in that middle way. The other side is porous, or diffused boundaries. So, when you think about the relationships in a family, they’re like a million permutations of how all of those things, kind of interact. If I have more rigid boundaries and I’m interacting with someone who has more porous boundaries, that’s gonna create a certain kind of conflict and so, having an awareness about what your boundaries are like, versus what the other person’s boundaries are like can be helpful to just inform you how to approach. The bottom line with boundaries though, is that you need to not become invested in what the other persons response is gonna be. It doesn’t matter what their response is. Now that’s not to say that you might not have feelings about it, or whatever, but it shouldn’t really affect what you decide to say to them, or tell them. Now, I will say the way that a person does it can really matter, in dialect behavior therapy, DBT, they have a skill called “Easy Manner.” I think of that as like, if you can say it in a light and breezy way, then you’ll probably have it received a lot more openly, but again, the outcome is not yours to control. If the person that’s receiving the like, “Hey, I really can’t make it home because I want to stay safe,” or “the CDC is making these recommendations,” or whatever, “I feel scared,” or whatever it is, leading with the feeling words, you know, the “I feel ______ (blank).”
Grizel:
Which I think is something that all of us have had to assess within ourselves this past year anyway, is like assessing our boundaries because one of the things I’ve learned this year is the fact that everyone, even people who I thought I was super close with, everyone has a different view of how to handle this pandemic and just because I don’t feel comfortable doesn’t even mean I need to shame someone for like, whatever it is. It’s just their boundaries are different than mine. For the people who are listening and are having a difficult time figuring out what their boundaries should be, do you have a way to navigate that?
Lauren:
When we’re talking about the pandemic, if it is based on fear, I don’t know, that makes sense to me. So, how do you just like, not get judgmental about that? The stance of non-judgment is very challenging. I work at it all the time and I still have to like, work at it. But, I think that if someone is trying to determine what is right for them, I encourage people to talk to the folks that they consider to be sound support. That can be a therapist, that can be your partners, that can be your good buds, that can be your higher power, whatever, you know what I mean? Like, and so, utilizing time, taking the time to kind of just put out, “here are all the thoughts I’m having,” and having those people reflect back to you, like this is what it sounds to me. So, connecting with people who you do feel really supported by before you, kind of launch into this space where you might not get the kind of support that you need. I think that journaling can be helpful. I think working through all the scenarios of like, if I do go, then am I actually gonna have a good time, or am I gonna be on edge. I know that for me, and I adore my family, but I have like, boundaries in my own head, and my family is very respectful of my own, the boundaries that I have, but when I am having to determine those, if I’m relying on their approval, they’re just different people and I guess some people would probably need some help to just, accept that.
Grizel:
I think too, just being kind to ourselves this year and if going to see your family just feels like it would be too much… And I mean, the CDC is already recommending that we don’t, but if you do decide, just be in mind of the fact that we’ve gone through like, it’s already been a lot this year for most people and it’s okay if you need to take a break and to rest and if resting means not visiting your family, I almost feel like I need permission to say that because my family is so close. I’ve been barely making it everyday anyway, why would I push myself even harder than I have like, what if Christmas and what if Thanksgiving is actually the most restful time that I can have because it is a day off from a lot of things. Like, what if we actually use that time to actually rest, you know? Cause as much as I love my family, it’s family, you know? Some of us are seeing our families and in certain situations, it, it does feel appropriate. A lot of people have been in the same bubble as their family. For those of us who are gonna go see our families, how do we communicate our mental health struggles to our family members and what might you need from them if you’re home for the holidays?
Lauren:
Using, like, the phrase “family as a whole,” can be tricky, because different members of the family may be able to show up differently. So, I would just, using discernment in that process, discerning who can be your ally. In the recovery community, when you’re looking for someone who can be a support for your sobriety, we call it a “Sober Ally,” but I think it extends to all mental health. So, really picking out who can be those people and for better, or for worse, you know, mental health has stigma and so, I think it can be good, like, when I’m working with people about their trips home and that kind of thing, I work out phrasing that, I hate saying this, but it’s frankly more palatable for people who are not in the mental health world. Alcoholic, using like, “I’m an alcoholic,” that can like, light up a whole bunch of stuff for people that, unless you have a lot of time to explain and educate, they may have a reaction that’s not that helpful. So, being able to say like, “I’m not drinking this year,” or “I don’t drink anymore,” can be a little more palatable. I really like Dr. Brené Brown, she says like, “People have the privilege of knowing our story.” Who has the privilege of knowing my story and to what degree? So, sometimes you can ask for stuff from your family without having to give them all the details about why. Like, “hey, just so you know, I’m trying to take care of myself this year. What that might look like is I’m gonna take more walks by myself and it would be really great if I could do that on my own, like, I’ll let you know when I leave, please don’t ask me to stay,” like, these are all boundaries, right? If you know that you have that mom or something, who’ll be like, “oh wait sweetie, let me get my jacket, I’ll join you,” bring all of that up ahead of time like, “hey, I want to be on my own on these walks.” I do suggest, as much as you can, putting boundaries in place ahead of time. Having that phone call ahead of time to say like, “I’m gonna need to take these walks.”
Grizel:
Yeah, I think that balance is so key. Every single time I go home there’s always a fight of some sort. There’s a lot of families that have instigators who create drama and create turmoil in the family. How do you put boundaries for people who are a little bit more controversial?
Lauren:
I have a history of being a little bit more on the rigid side and my work has been like, moving from rigid to flexible. So, for me, I would feel okay with stepping out, disengagement, I’m not gonna do that. That’s more on the rigid side, right? Being able to verbalize “I’m not gonna talk to you about this,” and doing the strategy again, that comes from DBT is broken recording it, over and over like, “I’m not gonna engage you with this.” Now, I have known and heard of families, sometimes that negative interaction is the connection that they’re looking for cause that’s how they know how to connect. So, having compassion for that, which is really hard when they’re like, getting under your skin and being able to say like, “I’m not gonna engage with you on this.” If they don’t respect that, then really disengaging and walking away.
Grizel:
It takes a lot of self-control though and I think that’s something, I know that I struggle with. A relationship in my family, who I’m not able to go on family vacations because it just triggers too much. I think being okay with the fact that like, I can’t do that. I feel guilty cause like, you’re supposed to be family and you’re supposed to have this unconditional love, but when there has been so much mistreatment and family dynamics, which I mean, I’ve experienced so, so much, you know, like, to be okay with not feeling guilty for when they don’t respect your boundaries and therefore you cannot attend. What was your last Christmas like? What was your last Thanksgiving like? And instead of just pretending like those conversations didn’t happen, I’ve been trying to be like, no, like, I have given my entire self, I have sought therapy, I have tried to have, like, healthy conversations and it doesn’t seem to work. So, it is okay for me to not partake in some of these family activities, which leads me to my next question, which is: How do you reject your family traditions that make you uncomfortable?
Lauren:
With that type of stuff, the “Easy Manner” thing is really important. Validating them. “I know this is really important to you. I don’t prescribe to this.” Leading with that validation can often like, put people at ease a lot more. And it sounds like you’ve done this really unpacking like, “We’re family, we’re supposed to… (dot, dot, dot),” whatever that does, supposed to, I don’t know what. And so, really unpacking what family means. My own personal work with this is, how can I just let people do their thing and let it roll off my back and of course it depends how someone’s comin’ at me with it and if they’re being really pressury. But, if someone’s like, “here, blow out this candle,” and like, “stand here while we say the prayer,” I can stand there and so, I’ve gotten a little more flexible when it comes to that kind of stuff for myself.
Grizel:
Realizing that there’s some things that you can be flexible with and there are some things that you can’t be flexible with. It does seem like the energy that I’ve gotten out of this year is that we, a lot of us have had really tough conversations with our families. A lot of my friends had a lot of conversations with their parents just about Black Lives Matter and learning about marginalized folks and having these conversations. I know that I had it and it’s definitely not a conversation that was easy to have and there just feels this like, tension now.
Lauren:
I can also understand for someone who, not having that conversation and especially with Black Lives Matter and that kind of thing. Not having that conversation can perpetuate a system that we’re trying to dismantle. I can understand that too. So, saying like, “Hmm, I refuse to go and not have that conversation. So I’m gonna say that I’m not comin’ this year.” That, to me, makes all the sense in the world too.
Grizel:
Yeah, exactly. I think people need permission sometimes. It’s so intense what we feel like we should be doing with our families and as a Hispanic person, family is like, everything to me. Like, I grew up with these like, very strong roots and to be able to like, tell them I’m not a Christian anymore was a huge deal. Doing these little steps have been really big, but it is not easy to place. And especially during the holidays because they make a lot, a lot of families make you feel guilty for not like, attending and like, we’re family and we’re supposed to do this, but like, what if your family treats you like shit? What if your family manipulates you? We need to be okay with the fact, if some person is making you feel like garbage, there’s something there and you don’t need to feel like that and especially if it’s a family member, there’s probably a ton of baggage. We shouldn’t have to shame ourselves to not be in that situation that’s gonna make us feel like shit afterwards.
Lauren:
There’s something about making space within oneself for all the feelings of that. There might be relief that you’re not going because you’re not subjecting yourself, which, to me, is a total act of self-love. So, there’s relief that you’re taking this act of self-love not to go, but there also may be loss because you are gonna miss out on connecting with folks and those moments that are good. I was really pushing wanting to be with my family for Thanksgiving. Five days out, decided, like, “okay, no,” it wasn’t in line with my social consciousness to like, travel. So, I tried to make space for all the feelings of like, “okay, I’m relieved because I know this is the safest thing for my parents and society, but I’m also sad, I have a new baby and they’re not gonna see her.” I can have space for all of that and as you say like, now I don’t have to travel and I’m just gonna rest for more days at home and that’s kinda nice.
Grizel:
How do we let go of the guilty feelings that we feel?
Lauren:
Well one thing I would say is, if feelings are what they are… So, how do we just like, let ‘em be what they are? Feelings are transitory. So, again I would encourage like, a stance of non-judgment about the fact that that comes up. Guilt is not a bad feeling, its neutral, but I think connecting with the values of why you did it can be helpful too. Saying like, “yeah, this guilt is here and I did it for this, this, and this reason and these are really important for me.” One of the things I’ll say is like, this isn’t gonna be forever. You’ll continue to evaluate as things go on. Maybe different individuals will decide not to go and that’ll open up space for you to go. All of this is engaging and growing and I’ve experienced like, really wonderful changes in my family like, I’m closer to my sister than I’ve ever been in my entire life, or that I thought I would ever be, just cause we’ve matured and have kids now and can connect on different things. So, I have a lot of faith that stuff can change over time.
Grizel:
I think that’s really good advice like, this is what it is now. People are changing, families change, dynamics change, and if you can’t be a part of that family dynamic right now doesn’t mean that you won’t ever be a part of that family dynamic. Maybe you have to do some more work on your childhood trauma, maybe you have to figure out what triggers you and why things trigger you, or why you’re being affected this way. I know that my sister triggers me still to this day like, I’ve done so much work, but you still have this ability to make me more angry than literally anyone on the planet. So, just knowing where you’re at with your emotions and not shaming them and just like, processing them I think is really, really valuable.
Lauren:
Also, maybe try different stuff like, you go on a family vacation, but you go for shorter. Or, you go on the family vacation, but you get your own room so you have your own space.
Grizel:
Our mental health is a little bit more fragile right now, so just be aware of the fact that that is probably something you should tend to a little bit more this year than you maybe would have had because the pandemic has brought out a lot in myself and I didn’t know that I had that much stuff and I know that I’ve heard that across the board. Being isolated, feeling lonely, not having connection has brought out a lot of things. Suicide rates have gotten higher, overdoses have gotten higher like, that shows that we are a little bit more fragile. So, maybe we should take care of ourselves a little bit more this year than we have in the past years, especially since a lot of people’s emotional baggage has to do with family trauma. How do we deal with emotional baggage that hasn’t been dealt with in front of family members?
Lauren:
So this is like, you’re getting triggered and you’re sitting there at the table, what do you do? I would encourage a strategy of prioritizing yourself, which again, if you’re more on the diffused, or porous side of boundaries, that is often not people’s instinct. For me, it’s like, how do I create space for myself to check in like, those walks, or even going to the bathroom, splash some water on my face. When you’re asking that question, I’m thinking about how, in those moments, often you are like, what I call the “Thinky Brain.” The brain that’s able to process stuff is, most of the time, offline and you’re just like, in the “fight, flight, freeze” and so, it’s like how do you just create space so that you can calm and soothe your body? For me, I have to remove myself to be able to do that. Otherwise, like, you have the potential for re-traumatization and that type of thing. But I also want to acknowledge, I’ve done a lot of work and so I feel safe and okay with getting up and leaving. That may really not feel okay for people.
Grizel:
Knowing your self-soothing techniques before, I think is just so important. If you’re not able to self-soothe in regular, daily situations, which should not be shamed because it takes so much work to get to that place, but if you’re not able to, then maybe now is not the right time for you and that’s okay. You can build your skills and I know that before I see Eric and my family like, I have to really think about like, the situations that I’m going to be put in. If my sister starts yelling at me out of nowhere, I know that I have to take deep breaths and leave the situation and I know how to say that kindly now, but that’s also taken so much work. If you are in a fragile state right now because of what you’re going through in life, maybe you don’t have that strength right now to be able to self-soothe, or cope, so maybe right now isn’t a good time to put yourself in those situations and that’s okay too.
Lauren:
And the other thing I would add about that too, is if you are gonna put yourself in those situations, doing those basic things that kinda, will leave you best prepared. Getting enough sleep, like, make sure you don’t get too hungry. If you’re in a recovery process, locate support groups and make sure you’re doing that, have your friend on alert. How do you have everything around you set up, so that you’re entering with the best frame of mind that you can possibly have? And you have your supports on deck if you need to use them.
Grizel:
For those of us who have family members that struggle with mental health illnesses, but it’s untreated, how do we do that?
Lauren:
Compassion, to me, is the number one thing with that. It’s been my experience, and I often observe it that sometimes it can be hardest to bring compassion into the relationships that are closest to us. Especially, you know, I’m a person in recovery, I’m a therapist, so I think I have the answer for everybody. So, I need to suspend that and bring a whole lotta compassion to like, whatever this person is doing, they’re probably doing the best that they can, right? Repeat that over and over. If I were to say, that they’re doing the best that they can, how would I be treating them right now? And so I try to bring that spirit of non-judgment to whatever is happening with them. That’s not to say that I need to like, cater to everything. I’m still gonna have my boundaries, but what I would caution against is any kind of advice giving, having conversations about what’s happening with them in front of a group of people. None of that has yielded good results, even though I think that I have very good advice.
Grizel:
Compassion and also, acceptance of our families. I love my mom so much, but because of the trauma she’s had, it’s just so much of it, she’s done the best she can and I have let go of the fact that, yeah I think that my mom would totally benefit from seeing a therapist, but that’s not where she is in her life. It’s not valuable for her and so, for me to try to convince her that she needs to do that… Honestly, just appreciate my mom for who she is and just like, love what she can give me and that’s come with years of therapy and working to get to this place because I had a lot of resentment, but now, as an adult like, I’ve been able to forgive her, move on and love who she is and now, as my mom in an adult fashion and it’s been way healthier for our relationship, for me not to want to change her, you know?
Lauren:
Well, and it’s helpful when you’ve done the work so that it doesn’t trigger you so profoundly. If I go with my family, I can walk away from that situation and be like, “Oh my gosh, tick this off, they messed this up, blah blah blah blah blah…” Or I can say like, I really enjoyed this moment. So, some of it can just be a matter of focus like, am I gonna appreciate and be grateful for, or am I gonna nitpick and judge? I’ve been reflecting on, there is like, no normal family. The word normal is so aggravating to me in so many realms, but particularly within the mental health, emotional, family realm. No normal. And then it’s even less normal now, becomes even less relevant than it’s ever been in terms of what a typical holiday is gonna look like. I have tried to really lean into and encourage people to lean into like, how can we work with what we’ve got? And so, some of the things my family has done is like, we started a photo stream that we’re all sharing of like, past Thanksgivings. That has been a total trip to look at these old pictures. That’s been like, an element of fun looking over those memories. And so, how do we lean into the things that we can? We’re gonna do like, a Thanksgiving fashion show because we all get dressed up you know, for the meals, so we’re gonna do that. How do we get like, creative about what we can do? And again, focus on that rather than on the stuff that we’re missing. Again, making space for all those things. There’s like, loss and sadness in not being able to be together for, for our family, but there’s also like, these are the things that we might be able to get creative about.
Grizel:
I wanted to give a special thanks to Lauren for providing all the information for us. In the show notes, you will find a link that will re-direct you to a workbook page full of self-reflection questions as you consider whether or not you’ll be attending your holiday gatherings. Before you go, I wanted to share an opportunity for our community. As we approach the end of 2020, I wanted to give us all a chance to process this year, which is why, for the month of December, we are gonna be focusing on grief. I know that I’ve lost a lot this year, but until I can name it, I won’t be able to process it, which is what brings me to you all. What have you lost this year? What have you grieved? Is it a person, an experience, a breakup, a job? I’d love to hear from you and you can send me an audio clip to grizel@grizelcaminas.comand you may be featured on December’s episode. Hopefully through this, we can process this loss together.
Grizel:
That’s the episode. If you enjoyed listening and want to receive every bonus episode, go to www.patreon.com/grizelcaminas, there you will find many mental health resources, a support group, and other ways to get involved. Also, consider leaving us a review on Apple podcasts, or anywhere you listen. It’s a fast, free way to support the show and it truly makes a difference in helping other people to find us. And, if you’re wanting to interact with more of this amazing community, you can find us on social media. We’re on Instagram @underneathitallpod and on Facebook, including our Facebook group for community questions, stories, and support, which you can find by searching Underneath It All Podcast. You can also follow me on Instagram @_grizel_ for Mental Health Mondays, where I talk about the balance of my personal life and my mental health and the outdoors. Intro music is created by a two-person band, which includes myself. You can find our music, including the one that just released, on Spotify by searching Passiflora, Be Alright. Until next time, I hope you all are staying safe and taking care of yourselves. Bye.