Underneath It All Show Notes Season 2, Episode 2 - Feeling Big, Feeling Loss Hosted by Grizel Grief is complicated. It’s messy. It’s exhausting. And it’s SO much. But that doesnt mean we can't talk about it. On this episode, Grizel interviews Meg Yingling, who is a climber and guide based out of Estes Park, Colorado. Grizel and Meg have a vulnerable and raw conversation regarding the loss of two climbing friends, Kalley and Tom. Meg values the playfulness of outdoor adventure, and loves to provide experiences for people of all ages, skill level, and background to access wild places. She loves practicing handstands, playing with her nieces and nephew, and wearing ridiculous bird shirts.
Underneath It All Show Notes
Season 2, Episode 2 - Feeling Big, Feeling Loss
Hosted by Grizel
Grief is complicated. It’s messy. It’s exhausting. And it’s SO much. But that doesnt mean we can't talk about it. On this episode, Grizel interviews Meg Yingling, who is a climber and guide based out of Estes Park, Colorado. Grizel and Meg have a vulnerable and raw conversation regarding the loss of two climbing friends, Kalley and Tom.
Meg values the playfulness of outdoor adventure, and loves to provide experiences for people of all ages, skill level, and background to access wild places. She loves practicing handstands, playing with her nieces and nephew, and wearing ridiculous bird shirts.
Resources From This Episode:
Grief Resources:
Additional Mental Health Resources:
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Season 2, Episode 2: Feeling Big, Feeling Loss
Grizel:
Hey everyone, I wanted to start this episode off by telling you a little bit about my Patreon and the current resources available on that platform. Grief is a huge topic and I thought it deserved so much more than one Mental Health Monday. So, I decided to do a 21-day Advent journal prompt. My hope is that these prompts help us process all of the loss that has happened this year for a more hopeful future. For more on this, head to patreon.com/grizelcaminas.
Megan:
That was the first time, my whole climbing experience where I felt like, really strong tight-knit community where people were looking out for each other. We always say “I love you” when we say goodbye and we always say goodbye like, we don’t, I’m like not, you know like, we didn’t say that to Kalley, you know… We thought we were gonna see her.
Grizel:
My name is Grizel and this is Underneath It All. A podcast that tells the stories of everyday people who have, or currently are experiencing mental health difficulties and how the outdoors have influenced them. Although I am a therapist, these conversations should not be confused as therapy sessions, but instead open conversations about mental health. My hope is that through these stories, you can have a better understanding of others around you, learn to accept and fully embrace your own narrative, and to continue breaking the negative stigma that has engulfed mental health.
Grizel:
I met Megan in February of 2020, before everything you are about to hear. It’s kind of funny how we met actually. I was living in the van full-time with Eric and we were just settled in a small climbing area in Colorado called Shelf Road. We had just started getting into climbing and we had heard so many good things about the amount of sport climbing there was and there was so much sport climbing. One day, as we were walking out to our beginner crag, there was this girl who had this epic bird shirt. I think it was super bright red, but I may be wrong. There was so much energy in that shirt and so casually, or maybe not so casual, I was like, “Yo, that’s a rad shirt.” And she was like, “Thanks dude. It’s my bird shirt.” Hours later, I received a message on Instagram and it was bird girl, AKA Megan. We talked back and forth for a while, but then, like many of us, I learned that Megan lost a lot in the year 2020. And after hearing her story, I realized “Shit, whether we want to believe it or not, most of us are grieving right now.” To be honest, I wanted to run away from this topic because death and loss makes me extremely uncomfortable. I have an intense fear of death complex thing, but that fear shouldn’t hold me back because the reality is, we are all going to die. People we love are going to die, people we have loved aren’t with us anymore. The conversation you’re about to hear is of two people who are simply trying to process grief after the tragic loss of two beautiful lives, Kalley Ann Rittman and Tom Wright.
Megan:
My name is Megan Yingling, I am a climbing guide based out of Estes Park, Colorado and that kind of leads into what I love to do, is I, I love to rock climb. Since, like a very young age I found a gym right across from my middle school. Going to school in Gunnison, Colorado, which is a really like, big mecca for outdoor, more adventure-style of climbing and then just kind of, falling in love with kind of just, taking other people out and going into wild places. That is like, what sets my heart on fire.
Grizel:
Like the backcountry?
Megan:
Yeah, you know just, I think that’s why climbing has been so special to me and especially in like, wild places like the Black Canyon, or you know, Rocky Mountain National Park, or you go places not, not a lot of people get to go. It takes a lot of not just like, you know, physical strength, but a lot of, you know, skill and you know, mental fortitude and practice and time to be able to like, get yourself to these places that are just really, really beautiful.
Grizel:
Were you doing that at a young age like, going to wild places and climbing? Or, when did you start going into the backcountry?
Megan:
Absolutely not. I was a gym climber from like, I guess I started climbing in 6thgrade and then was a gym climber for 10 years. So, I competed until I was 18.
Grizel:
What was your childhood like, as far as I mean, you had an avenue of expression to a point, right? But as far as your mental health, what was your upbringing like?
Megan:
I found that climbing gym, like right in the time where I needed it the most and I think that’s why like, I fell in love with climbing the way that I did is that… I grew up with definitely, a lot of like, mental health issues. Like, I was diagnosed with conduct disorder at age 2, which is kind of like, a fun anecdote now because you know, I think most 2 year olds fit like, the you know, criteria for. But then diagnosed with bi-polar disorder at age 8. Going in and out of psychiatrist offices, like on a lot of different medications and I love psychology and my background, like I have my undergrad in psychology and have hopes of going back to school and read all these books that talk about, kind of like, this era of like, the 2000s where hundreds of children were being diagnosed with bi-polar and being put on all these anti-psychotics. That was a part of my story.
Grizel:
What did that make you feel like?
Megan:
You know, for me it was like a lot of just, emotional regulation and that’s what my diagnosis, like went into when I was 16, I was emotional. Severe mood dis-regulation disorder. My conception of it now is just like, feeling really big and not really knowing how to deal with it. My dad was in the Army and he was deployed so much, like I didn’t meet my dad until I was 6 months old and he did several deployments, 18 month deployments every other year until I was in middle school. So, I think I, when I look back now like, I just think I was angry and you know like, just feeling big and I feel like I identify with that now.
Grizel:
How about at the gym like, when you would be climbing, did anyone else know that you were struggling with mental health struggles, or was that something you kind of kept separate?
Megan:
Well, I think that’s why I loved climbing so, so much is when I first started going to climbing, I just wanted an activity that was my own, right? Like, all my siblings had their things and my thing was going to hospitals and going to therapy a lot like, that was my thing. I didn’t like that thing very much, you know? When I found climbing, I was, people stopped talking about everything else and they started talking about how good I was at rock climbing, you know? And that was like, a huge shift and so, my emotions kind of had a place in climbing a little bit more. My high highs were accepted and my low lows, like people get mad in climbing all the time, you know like, that’s a part of it, but that there was also separate like, it was more like, I was a climber.
Grizel:
Climbing really does have those high highs and low lows. Were you able to hide behind climbing because of that?
Megan:
I mean, I don’t know if it was exactly hiding, you know, I definitely was one of the more, I don’t know like, I don’t want to say the word emotional, but definitely like yeah, emotional kids on the team. I got a little bit more attention you know, so I don’t think it was something I never really like, hid behind until later on in my climbing career when like, I’m doing more serious things where I have to keep my shit in order a little bit more. But I remember like, growing up, where it was like, a part of it and I felt like it was definitely one and one together. It didn’t feel like one came before the other. And I remember I did an article, this was in Killeen, Texas is when I started climbing, I remember like, there was always this like, op-ed piece in the newspaper that was like, centering on children who had fathers deployed. I got to be featured on one on rock climbing and it was like, “What do you love most about rock climbing?” I remember just explaining that like, I love feeling, “I can be angry and I can be sad and I can you know, just put it all out on the wall and then I can kind of let it dissipate.”
Grizel:
What is the community like, with rock climbers?
Megan:
I just spent, Indian Creek on Thanksgiving, Creeks-giving, is you know, a tradition as old as time and this was the first Creeks-giving that Tom was not there and being around my community was like, really, really beautiful. I’m finding… ugh… like, we lost Kalley in March and then Tom died in June and both of those communities are so tightly knitted. I feel like we all just clung to each other. That was the first time my whole climbing experience, where I felt like really strong tight-knit community where people were looking out for each other. We always say, “I love you” when we say goodbye and we always say goodbye like, we don’t, I’m like not, you know like, we didn’t say that to Kalley, you know and… We thought we were gonna see her.
Grizel:
Kalley is Megan’s friend that passed away on March 17, 2020. Megan met her on a random backpacking trip she was guiding in Boulder, Colorado in 2019.
Megan:
We did that backpacking trip and I thought she was so cool. She cussed a lot and I was kind of intimidated by her. She was so loved by her community and that was something that I didn’t really understand, at the time. I was guiding in Boulder and didn’t know anyone and made a lot of my like, climbing connections over mountain project, or facebook, which were like, some were like, really harmful. Just like, yearning for community and then I just like, stumble into this group and see how much these people love each other and kinda hate each other and deal with each other, you know?
Grizel:
So, were you immediately involved in her friend group?
Megan:
Yeah, kind of, I, that kind of happened and then I kind of went back to like, my guiding scene in Boulder and then I reached out to her in, in Moab and we, we went climbing together and we climbed Sister Superior, we climbed Jah Man. Which is just a crazy experience cause like, Jah Man is gone. I remember just walking in to Jah Man and you go in from like, River Road and I remember her just telling me stories of like, her community and, yeah, it was just like, one of the best days of climbing I had. That’s what she did, she would like talk about all the adventures she went on and I was so mesmerized by the fact that like, she would talk about life and, and the struggles of life and all these things like, while she was like, approaching the climb. So, I was like, you like, actually talk to your climbing partners?
Grizel:
Do climbing people not usually have that much of a connection, or talk to one another? I know that like, usually one’s up and one’s down so it’s difficult.
Megan:
For me now, it’s like a necessity. I don’t want to climb with you unless I have like, a really strong connection. If I don’t vibe with you like, I don’t want to climb with you, like its… Life is too short. That’s not how I used to think about it. It was about climbing. It was about how many days can I get on the rock and where can I like, meet my goals this year.
Grizel:
You were doing a lot of climbing expeditions the year before, but not finding like, community and then you met Kalley and she was kind of the beginning of opening up the potential of having like, a climbing community?
Megan:
So, I told her that I was training to take my advanced rock guide course and for me, that was like, a really big deal. Like, I took my AMGA Rock Guide course and I got the feedback that I was just not, not ready for the next course, but I wanted to get it and so I tried it anyways and they were like, “Ugh, you're doing okay, but you need a lot of work.” And she was so excited for me. I can picture her hiking into Jah Man and being like, “Meg, whatever you need to do like, I’ll be wherever you need to go, I can like, be your client, I can help you with your rock rescue drill, like whatever you need, I’m your person to help.”
Grizel:
A good person…
Megan:
Yeah, and just having like, her support. And at the time, I was like, “Ok, cool!” But then we like, met in Red Rocks for a whole month training for my advanced rock guide course, which I just took a month ago. Gus came out and we climbed with Gus for a while and Rob, my now partner, came out and climbed with us and I just remember like, driving with Gus and Rob and me in the back and just being like, “Where am I? Like, oh my gosh, like I love these people so, so much, like, how did this happen?” Like, it just happened all of a sudden and I just was so like, hook, line, and sinker. She was also someone that felt so big on the wall and I was kind of at a point, those things aren’t allowed in climbing cause you gotta focus on the climbing and like, I didn’t really have this community where I was able to like, talk about insecurities and vulnerabilities on the rock and also, rock climb and she did that no matter what. She was so good at feeling everything. Epinephrine is a really classic climb in, at Red Rocks and I’ll always remember her, literally like, 1500 feet of chimney-ing and it’s rarely protected, but really it’s just about like, you don’t fall. And Kalley like, she was having a hard time with the pitch and I didn’t want to lead it so I wasn’t offering to. She like whipped out of a chimney. Chimneys are not for whipping like, she just like ping-ponged down and I remember she just got so angry and then just like, fired the pitch like, she just did it. And it was just the coolest thing I’ve ever seen.
Grizel:
She used her emotions to get up the wall.
Megan:
Yes, I’m feeling all this and I’m going to climb and I had never seen that before.
Grizel:
How are you climbing before watching Kalley climb?
Megan:
I just had, just such a horrible year with climbing partners and was just so goal driven, like this is how it’s done, like you don’t, you don’t think about those things, those emotions, or feeling all of what you might be feeling will not get you up the wall, you know? It will not lend itself to a vulnerable, or positive climbing relationship. It’s not yes and, it’s like, separate and I definitely like, would stunt that part and I kind of thrived a little bit that way.
Grizel:
Totally. A lot of times you can like, compartmentalize for so long until they, all of a sudden are the same thing like, your emotions are on top of the wall and you’re just like, reading it.
Megan:
And that’s what was like, when Tom and Kalley died. Like, they can’t be separated. There’s no way I’m going to put this aside cause it’s too big. You can do it all, just like Kalley did. It was not how we saw it back then.
Grizel:
I don’t think a lot of people see it like that until something happens, when it becomes like, more real. I don’t wish trauma for anybody, but if I didn’t have the trauma that I’ve experienced in my life, then I wouldn’t be the person that I am now. Who is like, still fuckin’ scared of everything, but I know that like, because of it, I am aware of how short life is, so much, you know? And I feel like, I think about, I want to be the person, the best version of myself, as much as possible, you know? And I don’t think I would’ve felt that if I hadn’t gone through trauma, which is, yeah, really sad that that’s true, but you don’t know until you’ve experienced it.
Megan:
So Kalley died on the Valdez Glacier on March 17th. She was putting up a first ascent. They’d put up 2 routes, 2 pitches, and her partner rappelled off the first pitch first and then Kalley weighted the system and it failed and she fell to the ground and her partner went to go get help and she was dead when they returned for her. So much messier that I had ever imagined it to be. Thinking of like, Kalley dying alone like, Kalley like, was there for everyone and then she died alone on the glacier and she was awake when it happened, you know? And she died from like, trauma. I’d never experienced that before and so, I feel like after its done like, you can’t pretend like, climbing, like this doesn’t happen. And I feel like there’s definitely like this like, community of people that like, have experienced death in the climbing community and then those who don’t, you know? And I feel like a very classic way that you know is when you like, are talking about your grief and someone says like, “Yeah, like people die in climbing…” Like that is a very like, really good way, that I think that like people, just, like, that is, if you’ve lost a friend in the mountains, like you don’t say that, you know? Cause you think of that one person, like that one face, you know, like that friend that you shared all those pitches with, you know?
Grizel:
Fuck, dude! I just like, I know we haven’t even started talking about Tom and just like, two deaths in a year? Like of people that you’ve really trusted and loved. That’s a lot.
Megan:
I was thinking about this podcast and I wanna like, just tie a nice bow on my grief and be able to like, give this message and there’s going to be good days and there’s going to be bad days, but like, they will always be gone. They’re always not gonna be here so like, some days are gonna be like, really, really, really painful and not be okay. In the creek, it’s like, “Tom can’t be here today like, that sucks, like he would’ve loved this pitch. So, I’m gonna climb this pitch and like, have fun.” And then, there are days where like, I would like to not get out of bed today and that’s okay.
Grizel:
Yeah, I mean it’s really complicated isn’t it? Just the amount of emotions that come up like, and they often feel contradictory towards one another. It’s so much easier for me to feel the pain of others, but my own pain, just feels, just so deep sometimes that it makes me scared to feel it. Like, I don’t want to feel it, I’d much rather feel pain of other people. Is it pretty common for you to like, dismiss, kind of, your own feelings to focus on the feelings of others?
Megan:
I grew up in, like a really amazing home and like, my mom worked so hard to make sure that I had the resources available for me, but I’m definitely noticing like, now as I like, work through, like losing two people… Going through this grief as a partnership like, with my partner, Rob, is like, a whole other thing that just comes with all of it’s baggage. And, I realize like, my dad served 7 combat tours, active artillery infantry tours. I can tell you like, almost every single time that he left like, I know when he left, I know the exact spot that I would wait by the phone on Sundays, and I feel that, in my partnership now, like Rob goes out climbing, it’s like my dad’s leaving for Iraq.
Megan:
March 17th, Covid was just getting bad and April was all the shutdown and, and I just remember a lot of long walks on the golf course. I just had the hardest time like, not putting myself in Kalley’s shoes and like, the last moments of her life. April comes around and things are like, not doing well, but like, people are kind of getting a little bit more alive. I just remember feeling so off and we get home and I was in the bathroom and Rob was in the bedroom. I like, come in and I see Rob on the phone and he’s on the phone with our friend Curtis and Curtis said like, “There’s been an accident.” Tom and Curtis were climbing in Boulder Canyon at a really popular, just like, simple sport climbing crag and it was after like, a long day of sport climbing and you know, Tom’s like, going up a 5.9, which Tom and I have lead like, 5.11 on the Diamond before, like a 5.9 sport climb in Boulder Canyon is nothing for Tom. He was reaching up to clip the 3rdbolt and, were not really sure, we think like, his foot popped, or something, but he fell while trying to clip and he hit the ground and hit his head without a helmet on. Curtis bee-lined it straight down the hill to the highway and was able to like, flag down people. He flew away in a helicopter and we just like, couldn’t find him. Tom like, never regained consciousness from the time he hit his head to when he died.
Grizel:
How did you know Tom?
Megan:
When I moved to Boulder like, he was like, my first like, buddy, you know? I talk about like, my time in Boulder being really lonely like, who I had was Tom. Oh god, and Tom was like, really straight forward kind of guy and kind of no beating around the bush with Tom. He was a geologist and really smart, but then he also like, loved bubble baths and making pies for people. Really quirky guy and you could not be Tom’s climbing partner without being Tom’s friend. Like I have this funny story, like we’re going to climb the Diamond, right, and Long’s Peak was just like, you know, one of the greatest alpine adventures in North America like, it’s just the best thing that happens. Like, vertical crack climbing at 14,000 feet like, you can’t not… I was like, “Okay, I’ll be outside your door at 4 o’clock.” And he was like, “Okay, 4 am.” Which is kind of a late start for the Diamond anyways. I was outside his door at 4 am and like, he wasn’t there at all and I remember like, calling him and he comes to the door at like 4:15 and then he makes me this grand breakfast of quiche and like, mochas and just like, this like, ridiculous thing and I remember being like, “Tom, like, it’s like 6:30, like we have to go alpine climbing right now.” But Tom’s like, “Ah, we’ll get there, we’ll get there.”
Grizel:
I feel like, that’s what makes shit so hard sometimes, why, like why? I know that’s just like, a part of life, but I don’t like that part of life at all. Like, I don’t want people who deserve to be living forever to die, like I can’t, I hate it. That’s the worst part of life, I feel like.
Megan:
Yeah, and that was like, really hard for me from Kalley. Kalley was 23 and like, gave everything for others. She died alone. That’s not fair. And that’s kind of like, you just like, leave it at that.
Grizel:
I feel like, that’s why death is so confusing and even in the mental health field is just like, there’s never a good enough explanation that’s gonna make you feel any better. Like, even when I think about my trauma, I’m like, when I get a flashback, I’m like, well the flashback is because this, this, and this happened and like, I can even like, blame it on like, a bad person. It’s just so painful, it doesn’t make sense.
Megan:
For me, it really helped to have these definitive statements. When Tom died, that’s just what happens when you hit your head that hard. Like, for some reason that just brought me like, so much like, that is true, like it doesn’t make any sense and it like, shouldn’t be this way and it’s not fair, but that’s just what happens when you hit your head that hard. Because it just didn’t make any sense and especially when you tie it in with climbing like, everyone in our community was like, not okay with climbing, or you know, people are like, you know, my partner was like, going even further in his climbing and doing even more dangerous climbs and like, there’s just so much murky gray water in all of it.
Grizel:
You found out about Tom, did you go to the hospital?
Megan:
The next morning, the first thing on the docket was to try to find Tom’s health insurance. He’s just like, such a private guy. This was a hard thing for the grieving process for everyone like, everyone kind of had like, their own Tom. And so, we like, went to his house and I remember like, picking out like, his favorite shirt, getting out his like, clothes because he would want to wear his clothes home from the hospital. Feeling really weird in his house, like no, just thinking about like, all the memories we had in his house and then we went to the hospital. And it was really weird in the hospital because it was COVID and so, only one person could go and see Tom. You know like, the competitiveness with grief sometimes?
Grizel:
Who’s closer?
Megan:
Yeah, and how detrimental that can be? Man, just like, ranking yourself like, “Okay I can feel less than that person and more than this person.” And it was really hard to get away from it when, literally we had to pick. If Tom had 7 days left, that means we get 7 people in. On the first day, Rob went in first because he was the first person to go in. So, in Colorado, medical decisions for that person, is not like, automatically given to family, it’s chosen by a social worker to be the most appropriate person. Rob is like, seeing Tom for the first time and a social worker comes in and says, “Okay, like when will you be removing life support?”
Grizel:
You can’t focus on the fact that, what’s happening, because you have to make all these decisions, which is like so fucked up when you’re going through what you’re going through.
Megan:
Yeah, and there was just so much to do. We didn’t know if Tom had insurance and so we had to make sure that we got all the things we needed to, out of his house before they were repossessed. The climbing community especially, there’s an accident like, people want to know what happened. How do we learn from this, like what went wrong? Everyone knew Tom, like Tom was like, so loved by the Boulder community. In the state of Colorado, if you don’t have a written will saying like, I would like this to happen if I cannot give consent myself. If you don’t have that, you can’t be helped to death and so Tom couldn’t say that he wanted to be taken off life support and he didn’t have it written down in a will and so, how it’s done is that they just remove everything and he has to die naturally. He hit the back of his head on his like, on his lower neck and so he had damage to his brain stem, which is where we have our most human functioning so, he could breathe, but just a little bit and he could control his heart rate, but just a little bit. What it looked like, for him to remove life support, was that he just, like literally suffocated to death. And his mom was there, his partner was there and I think for like, my grief, was like, watching a partner of a climber go through losing her partner. Cause I was very close to her, like Andrea called me, like I was just trying to relax that morning and you know, I was really just like, taking it slow that week and she said like, “I need you down here, they’re going to remove it soon and I don’t have anyone down here.” Getting into the van, driving down to the Front Range, which is an hour drive from Estes Park and being like, “Okay like, I am like, going to watch my friend die today,” and like, being really like, not wanting to do it, but really just wanting to be there for this like, woman who was losing her partner and just like, wanting to make sure that she had her support.
Grizel:
That fuckin’ sucks. How did you feel seeing Andrea?
Megan:
The nurses kept saying that hearing is the last thing to go and how it’s really important to just like, keep talking to them because they really do think that they’re still there. When Andrea came in, you could see Tom’s heart rate monitor skyrocket. He was there in some way. If there’s anything there, you wanna make sure that he knows that you're there for him. I played Duolingo with Tom a lot. Tom and Rob went to Patagonia together and Tom was like, so passionate about adventuring in South America and was like, learning Spanish. I did like, Duolingo with Tom, which is just insane cause like, half of his skull is missing.
Grizel:
Connection, right? Like, were you kind of just in survival mode for that week?
Megan:
I feel like, I’ve really dived deep into the nervous system and like, learning about like, working through trauma and I really wish I kind of like, had the information of moving my body throughout that whole week. Going outside and literally like, shaking it off, cause that’s not what I did. You wanna, okay, you want to know something funny?
Grizel:
I mean, I’m here for all of it.
Megan:
We stole the ICU ottoman.
Grizel:
Yes! Do you still have it?
Megan:
Yeah, it’s in our front, our living room right now. We’re like, “There’s cops downstairs.” And I just remember being like, “I’m invincible right now, like nothing can touch me, like nothing as bad as this so let’s just do it.”
Grizel:
I mean, but I get it though, cause you’re just like, trying to cope with the reality, like coping with that is just, it’s too much.
Megan:
And it was like, this moment of just like, laughing in the middle of like, our friend dying. Tom’s ottoman.
Grizel:
Tom’s ottoman.
Grizel:
So had you climbed at all?
Megan:
Yeah, I did climb.
Grizel:
What was your relationship with climbing like?
Megan:
At first, I feel like I climbed just because I was afraid if I stopped, that I would never do it again. If I don’t do it then like, I would just lose it. And I was really scared at that fact. Like, I literally drove from the hospital to Eldorado Canyon and like, like, went climbing even before Tom died, when he was in the hospital.
Grizel:
I didn’t realize that. So you kind of used climbing, also as a way and form of grieving too.
Megan:
Oh my gosh, yeah. One and the same. It was hard because I was training for my advanced rock guide course and I was a rock guide, you know, so it was my career and my like, passion and then it was also the thing that I was the most angry at. I felt so betrayed by climbing for the longest time. This is the thing that has brought me joy my whole life and it was an identity thing, right? I have been a climber my whole life and then all of a sudden like, I don’t think I want to be a climber anymore like, if this is what this means like, if this is what this looks like, I don’t know if I want it. That was it’s own whole, like crisis.
Grizel:
So complicated. Do you still feel like you have that relationship with climbing where it’s just hot or cold kind of feelings?
Megan:
I’m in a better spot now. I’ve passed my rock guide course. I have my season over. The first thing I did when I finished my course was just like, sob like a psycho. It was it’s own passage to grief that I like, wasn’t able to access until like, I was able to do my, like responsibilities, you know? There was definitely a part of me that was like, I have to rock climb because I have to like, do my work, you know? Like I have to, like this is my way of life. And then, when I was finally over it, it was like I can finally breathe, like I can like, I can only climb when I want to and I don’t have to if I don’t want to and that was like, not something that I had access to as much. You know, and I could make that choice, right? Like, I could say, “I don’t want to do my course and I’m going to take the season off of guiding,” and that’s what I did. I did a lot of outdoor education work. So, like I definitely like, had little breaks.
Grizel:
I know people die doing things all the time that I’ve done, but I can’t help but think that if someone I knew died climbing, I don’t know, I’d be really, really scared to try it again. Or, like, have flashbacks that intrude my climbing experience so, was that a healthy decision for you, did you feel really good about that decision for yourself?
Megan:
I had a lot of like, amazing resources like, I got connected to the Climbing Grief Fund and that helps climbers work through losing people in that industry of like, you know, skiing and climbing usually. I also work for an amazing guiding service called Women’s Wilderness, that was like, huge for me. I remember the first day that I showed up and climbing, it can be, kind of like, you know, put your feelings aside and just rock climb and the guiding industry can be like, all that and more but, for Women’s Wilderness like, I said the first day like, I am grieving like, I am just in like, the throes of this. So, I’m scared to like, lead this trip this week and I was just like, met with so much love and we even do trainings on like, trauma and grief for the company. And we did this really cool one on the art of pushing through and it completely opened up my eyes on like, what it means to like, push through and I feel like that’s really common in climbing and maybe just like, all outdoor sports. You’re scared? Oh just like, keep going, you know like, oh you don’t want to be here? Just forget about that. Just push through, rub some dirt on it. Our nervous system and that is not that backed in science.
Grizel:
So what do we do with it though? Instead of pushing through like, how do you handle the fear?
Megan:
For me, it was like, recognizing like, what was going on. My vision would just like, completely blur out sometimes, or my heart rate would go like, through the roof. Talking about like, real risk versus like, perceived risk, right? And how my body has associated, you know, the third bolt with like, real, real risk and then my body responds to that risk and it, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t see the real or perceived, right? I think it was like, a balance of sometimes backing down when I had the choice and that is huge.
Grizel:
Humbling yourself. To be able to be like, this is not the time.
Megan:
Especially when you’re like, I can climb 5.9 like, I can do this. I can, I can do this pitch, but being like, that’s not what this is about. Like, everyone knows, you know, yourself knows like, you can climb this. There’s something bigger happening here. Being able to like, be okay with backing off was huge. When you can’t back down, doing like breathing techniques and, you know, trying to like, activate that frontal cortex, right? Rationalize what’s happening here like, okay I’m safe. And during my course, you know, you have to climb at a certain limit on like, big routes and I had not climbed that way since both Tom and Kalley died and I was like, there’s no way. And I remember I worked on like, a mantra like, I am safe because I am skilled. My skill will get me through this, like I am safe here. I would step one foot up and say I am safe and put another foot up and say I am skilled, you know?
Grizel:
I feel like that’s so helpful though cause that’s the difference, right? Like, not ignoring the fact that you’re scared, or not ignoring the fact that you're fearful, or not ignoring your anxiety and just addressing it. Even just being kind to yourself and being like, I can’t turn that on right now, I can’t like, think through this. The emotions are too much, maybe I need to come down. And I wonder how often like, especially like, in the outdoor community and I feel like, so many people in the outdoor industry, who are especially athletes, how many times I’ve told myself that what I’m feeling is actually not that big of a deal even if it is a big deal because I’ve been told just to lie to yourself just to get through it. Part of the reason I’ve done a lot of the shit I’ve done is because I did push through that. I also know that that’s probably when I’ve gotten the most injured. I get exhausted emotionally by it. I feel like I notice that a lot of, especially in the outdoor community with any kind of adrenaline sport, push through the fear, push through the anxiety and then good luck, hope nothing bad happens.
Megan:
A mantra for me recently has been, is like, I want a new way forward. How can I experience these really incredible objectives and feats done in this sport and then while also doing it in a way that is right for me. That’s like, such a different path for everyone.
Grizel:
Dependent on the person, what they’ve gone through that year, if they get more easily triggered than other people like, what their neuro-pathways are like. I just recently found out that I have a few chemical imbalances and I’m just now getting medicated about it and it’s been really, really good for me. But, one of the things that I’m learning is just like, when I feel anxious is just to literally, just stop what I’m doing for like, 2 minutes and just like, sit back and just breathe and just ground myself. Cause I grew up like, you work through the hard things no matter what, you put your feelings aside.
Megan:
Yes like, there are things to do and I have these big emotions as well.
Grizel:
So how did your relationship with climbing and also your climbing friendships change from when Tom died to like, where you're at now?
Megan:
I just saw this quote today that I really, really like by Glennon Doyle. But it was about like, “My fear, instead of feeling it all, is missing it all,” like, instead of like, fearing of feeling it like, that’s not what I’m afraid of. I’m afraid of like, missing what’s going on right now. What’s happening in my community with the grief that we’re all feeling like, I don’t want to miss this. I want to feel. I don’t want to run away from that feeling that like, I’m putting the people I love and like, at risk emotionally from my climbing experience like, I want to like, stay in that. I just sent you photos of my niece that like, I have a really incredible relationship with, but like what does it look like for me to talk to her about the risk I take in climbing. Cause like, I can’t just assume I’m not going to die because that’s not realistic and that’s how it’s different now. These horrible things can happen and they can happen tomorrow and they can happen today and what conversations are we having about risk and how we talk to loved ones about this. And like, really asking like, myself like, am I okay with this risk like, am I okay with like, if I climb today like, that means that I’m accepting like, I might not come home like, am I alright with that?
Grizel:
In the moment, evaluating the risk too like, maybe today you don’t feel like you want to take a risk. So maybe just come down from the wall. You express that to your climbing partner like, I don’t feel comfortable today, I don’t know what it is, something is happening in my body. It’s just so hard because to be able to be that aware of your own emotions and like, what you're feeling, it takes so much fucking work to get there and it’s not encouraged in the outdoor community. Why do you think it’s so hard for people to miss what’s happening?
Megan:
I think climbing is so beautiful because like, you get to experience like, really, really high highs, but then you also get to experience like, really, really low lows. People have been talking about how this creates the climbing experiences that, you know, people have been having for decades like, it’s there. The climbing partnerships I have now like, they are those. We can just talk about like, man I am like, really thinking about Tom right now and we can like, talk about all those things. I want like, the people that I love to be not missing it and then, for me to not be missing it and for us to like, engage in those conversations like, all the time.
Grizel:
With, just anybody who we’ve loved, who’s passed, normalize just talking about them whenever you just fucking need to talk about them. I feel like some people get really uncomfortable about asking about death and I understand why. It’s really complicated and it doesn’t feel good to talk about, but the reality of death is that they’re gone, but not forever, you know, because they’re in our hearts and I just, I want to encourage people, ask others if they’ve gone through some loss this year like, please ask how they’re actually feeling about it and ask specific questions. Tell me who their, what they we’re like.
Megan:
My experience, I wanted to talk about Tom, you know, having friends that kind of shy away from the topic, or kinda wanna like place like, a little bow on it and be like, oh people like, people die in climbing, I’m sorry. I don’t know like, can I tell you about Tom, can I just tell you how we did this exact hike last summer and how much fun it was, you know, like, normalizing talking about it. Death is like, everywhere and is like, a part of all of our lives at one point or another. Being able to just openly talk about it was probably like, the most important thing for me.
Grizel:
Cause it doesn’t have to be just like, talking about the actual incident of the person leaving this Earth. That’s why memories mean things. That’s why we take fuckin’ photos, is to look at that picture for a while and just think about that picture and what that moment felt like. So why can’t we just talk about it more, I mean, I keep shaming the outdoor community cause it’s so fucking competitive and annoying like, you’re just always trying to be better. And I love goals, I’m very goal-oriented, I need goals, but like also part of the reason why I don’t connect with people’s like, I need someone to be okay with the fact that I may not be okay at a very random point and that needs to be accepted.
Megan:
On this belay ledge, I would like to just cry and then maybe the next belay ledge, it will be different.
Grizel:
Or, maybe not!
Megan:
Maybe not.
Megan:
Feeling like you find that tribe. I feel like that has been something that’s been like, huge. Okay like, I can cry on this belay ledge, you know, or I can, I can talk about Tom on this belay ledge and not just put it down cause that’s doesn’t, that’s never gonna work.
Grizel:
Well there’s that like, form of connection with other people when you can connect about your loss too. It is a trauma bonding and it can be really, really helpful because they know what you’re feeling too. To not feel alone in loss is really, really powerful and I think that’s something we can all kind of feel this year like, it like, makes me really sad like, how much loss like, people have really experienced this year. Like, people have lost everything, everything this year. This year has been terrible for that like, fuck this year for how much death has happened and the amount of relationships I know that have gone through break-ups. So many people I know have gone through like, so much loss. I just want to encourage folks to just like, actually feel the fact, the impact of what this year has done to us like, it’s not been fucking easy like, it’s been fucking terrible for so many people that I love. But instead of like, pushing it away being like, fuck 2020 like, what if we just fucking talked about how fucking terrible it’s been. And like, guess what, in 2021, we’re gonna still be grieving this year like, you’re so right, you can’t just tie a bow on it once it’s over like, I just hope that we can just normalize talking about all of it.
Megan:
Yeah like, it happened like, you can’t take it back. The New Year bell won’t erase it.
Grizel:
One of the questions I had for you was, in order to be a good climber, it sound like you have to, kind of, escape into that reality because you have to focus, but is it hard to turn that part of your brain off when you get out of climbing?
Megan:
When like, you finish the climb and you know, you’re done, that’s honestly why I think people talk about climbing when they’re not climbing. They're not walking away from the climb, you know, saying like, “okay like, that was a good day.” They talk about their past climbing experiences and gear like, lets talk about cams for the billionth time in a row. And when Tom died and Kalley died, it was like, none of this matters. I remember like, having these really deep conversations like, right after Tom’s death. What does climbing mean to you now and I’m like, it doesn’t fucking matter, Tom’s dead like, his mom’s grieving like, this doesn’t matter like, climbing does not matter. And I think that like, really forced everything into perspective. Getting to the top is not really the point here. Creating connections and like, living this life that you value, you know?
Grizel:
And you can be a good climber and value life and be able to not just escape. Life is all about balance and when we put all of our eggs in one basket, we miss out on a lot of things that are going on.
Megan:
The CGF, the Climbing Grief Fund like, has all these incredible resources where they interview people that have gone through losing someone. I am so grateful that I had that resource. Just hearing other people talk about their grief and this understanding of climbing that you once had, that was maybe not as much hurt as one after death. Once you’ve entered that, then like, you can’t go back.
Grizel:
What advice would you give to people who have experienced loss this year? What do you wish you knew, or had? What do you think you needed when Tom died that you wish to give to other people who’ve experienced loss this year?
Megan:
I’m really loving this “not missing it” mentality. Missing it is worse than feeling it. I was just talking to my therapist about the graph and how we always want to be linear. Today, I’m going to feel this way and then tomorrow, will just be a little bit better, hopefully and it does not look like that. It’s up and down and there’s gonna be good days and there’s gonna be bad days. Feeling it all is better than missing it. But then, when you zoom out of that graph, it actually kind of does resemble like, an upward motion. They’re never not going to be dead, right? Like, that’s never not going to be the case. If you want to get better, you’ve gotta work really hard for it. You could stay low like, it sounds really depressing, but it’s not gonna change. Like, Tom’s like, never gonna be here again and that like, just saying that right now is just like, not okay. But like, like okay, that’s the truth, so I gotta work for it, you know? Cause it’s not gonna just change on it’s own and I think like, feeling it all is like, a part of that too.
Grizel:
How has working and like, feeling it, what has that done to you? Just the way that you feel about yourself.
Megan:
Oh, I feel stronger. I do feel like, a little bit of pride like, I can feel it all.
Grizel:
Especially with your childhood, when you’ve been shamed for so long, how you experience things.
Megan:
That was, kind of like, my diagnosis was that I just was feeling too much. That is my greatest strength now. That is what’s gonna get me through this.
Grizel:
I love that you just said that. Sometimes it’s really fuckin hard to feel things though. Especially like, at first, when you first lose someone like, it’s just so overwhelming like, when is this feeling gonna be over? Will I ever not think about them? And then you, just keep grieving and like, crying and processing it and then, maybe you think about them, but it’s like a warm memory and then you do something positive on their behalf. And that’s like, a really cool like, empowering feeling too. To do things in the memory of people is like, it’s really powerful, you know? It’s such a cool feeling cause you just feel their spirit inside of you.
Grizel:
This episode is dedicated to Kalley Ann Rittman and Tom Wright and of course, to you Megan. You are such a beautiful soul. Thank you so much for sharing your beautiful time together with those two and thank you for sharing the complicated space that grief holds. That’s the episode. Thank you all so much for listening. Again, be sure to check out our Patreon for the 21-day Advent Calendar sharing different journal prompts to grieve 2020 together as we prepare for a New Year. You can find that, bonus episodes, and way more at www.patreon.com/grizelcaminas. We’ll see you in a couple weeks, so in the meantime, consider leaving us a review on Apple podcasts, or anywhere else you listen. It’s a fast, free way to support the show and it truly does make a difference in helping other people find us. And, if you’re wanting to interact more with this amazing community, make sure you find me on social media. We’re on Instagram @underneathitallpod and on Facebook, including our Facebook group for community questions, stories, and support, which you can find by searching Underneath It All Podcast. You can also follow me on Instagram @_grizel_. For Mental Health Mondays, where I talk about the balance of my personal life and mental health and you’ll see a lot of dogs. Intro music is created by a two person band, which includes myself. You can find our music on Spotify by searching Passiflora. Love you guys, bye.