Vera Undertow is an outdoor enthusiast who enjoys hiking 14,000 ft peaks in Colorado. They are also a person who has struggled with depression, suicidality, anxiety, and gender identity. In the season premiere of Underneath it All, host Grizel and Vera talk about growing up where gender is assumed, the challenges that come with seeing a therapist, the negative stigma that has engulfed mental health issues, and how to move forward from different mental health crises.
Vera Undertow is an outdoor enthusiast who enjoys hiking 14,000 ft peaks in Colorado. They are also a person who has struggled with depression, suicidality, anxiety, and gender identity.
In the season premiere of Underneath it All, host Grizel and Vera talk about growing up where gender is assumed, the challenges that come with seeing a therapist, the negative stigma that has engulfed mental health issues, and how to move forward from different mental health crises.
Resources From This Episode:
Additional Mental Health Resources:
Enjoy this episode? Rate us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. It’ll help other people find us. You can also share this podcast with a friend. Thank you for your support!
Episodes air bi-weekly on Monday’s. Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode.
Underneath It All is produced and hosted by Grizel.
A production of Ravel Media.
Theme music is by Passiflora.
Additional Music was found by using Musicbed License.
Podcast cover artwork designed by Hailey Hirst.
Grizel (00:01):
Before we get started. There's a mention of suicidal ideation in the beginning of this episode. Also as this episode touches on topics of mental health, including depression, anxiety, and addiction know that there's always someone to talk to. If you need help, you can reach the national suicide hotline prevention lifeline at +1 800-273-8255.
Grizel (00:28):
My name is Grizel. .
Grizel (00:31):
You don't know me yet, but if you decide to go on this journey with me and the people I get the opportunity to talk to, you'll get to know me pretty well. I'm a Latinx hiker through hiker, outdoor enthusiast writer and a mental health therapist, I don't currently practice anywhere because to be honest, I wanted to create this podcast. I wanted listeners to hear the stories I heard and be touched by the narratives that are all around us because behind these stories of pain is also a story of power strength.
Grizel (01:06):
This is underneath it all, a podcast that tells the stories of everyday people who have, or currently are experiencing mental health difficulties and how the outdoors has influenced them. My hope is that through these stories, you can have a better understanding of others around you learn to accept and fully embrace your own narrative and to continue breaking the negative stigma that has engulfed mental health, because the truth is many of us that are experiencing the outdoors have also experienced mental health struggles. In fact, these struggles are often the experiences that brought us out there in the first place. And yet mental health illnesses have a dark stigma that prevents so many of us from opening up and telling the real story. The real us, we talk about these wild adventures. We embark on highlighting the highs and even the lows, but we forget to discuss how we got there in the first place, because sometimes what drove us to climb the highest peaks was experiencing the lowest valleys of your life. So without further ado underneath it all,
Grizel (02:31): [inaudible],
Grizel (02:31):
I was 15 years old and I called the suicide hotline. My parents had no idea that I was seriously depressed and quite frankly, I don't know how much they could have done. Don't get me wrong. My parents love me so much, but how do you help an angry, broken teenager when there's so much trauma in your own life? And to be even more Frank, my parents had no idea what mental health was. All they knew was that I was really good at pissing them off and kissing each other off. I would go to school day after day acting as if nothing was happening at home acting as if I had hoped for a better tomorrow. But it seemed like tomorrow would just be as bad as the others. And there was no hope in sight. I was ashamed of what was going on inside of me. And I dare tell no one.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
I mean, there's like no pressure to be anybody when you're by yourself. Right. You just get to be yourself. It's so hard to just like constantly be like psychoanalyzing the presentation you're putting on to the world to try and pass as a person that you feel like you should be, because you're raised to be like, you know, I felt like I should be more masculine my whole life. Right? So like, I would just consistently be like trying to put on this like act, you know, this persona, that just, it was so unnatural and it's so tiring. So exhausting to just like, not be authentic. I either can't live anymore or I can live as the person inside of me that I'm afraid to be.
Grizel (04:07):
This is Vera. They are close friend of mine that enjoys hiking mountains every couple of days and not
easy mountains by the way.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
But I moved to Colorado to climb mountains ever since then. I've been trying to get into shape for climbing mountains. I just am trying to climb all of them in Colorado, I guess. I mean, at least the top fourteeners in 13 are all like all of them. That's a goal. And do you follow a trail? Um, I mean, if there's like a good trail that suits my needs, I'll follow it. But if there's no trail, that's trying to go the way I'm trying to go. I'll just make my own way up. I mean, there's no rule in Colorado. You can just walk wherever. It's great.
Grizel (04:50):
I love that about you. Do you know that I don't do that. I've hiked a lot of trails. You see something and you know, it's for you and then you do it. That's not something I hear very often Vera, like I don't hear people say like, yeah, there was no trail. So I still walked it. That's not, no, like there were, I couldn't find the chair, so I just turned around. Cause I didn't want to get lost, but you're so okay with being lost.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
Well, it's not lost, right? It's just that I'm not necessarily exactly the direction I was trying to go. I was off course, but I wasn't lost right. As long as I have the tools necessary and I have the energy I'll never lost. I can keep walking until I find my way. You know, you can just see a, a Ridge line and just be like, I could climb up that Ridge line instead of going the way everyone else goes. I feel like having your own journey is more exciting on Monday, I climbed humble peak, which is like one of the fourteeners in the song, Grady Christos. And there's like a really nice trail on the West, on the West Ridge. Um, but I decided I wanted to climb up the East slopes and there's like sort of a trail for halfway through the woods and then there's not really a trail.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Um, but I was just like, if I keep walking sort of up and a little bit West, every time I go any direction, I'll find it. And eventually I found this nice gully that led me right up above tree line. And then I just follow the slope to the Ridge line and made my way up. And uh, I don't know. I just feel like it's, it feels more authentic to me to like find my own path and like feels more like I'm really connecting with the wilderness, right? Like I'm doing nature my own way. Like there's no, not like people there, you know, so I'll get to the summit and I'll see people when I get there, but like they all came up to the same route and they're like doing the standard way, you know? And it's like, the nonstandard way has a lot of, I don't know, it just has a lot of like joy for me, I guess, going off the beaten path, sorta just finding my
own way. And I feel like that's a good metaphor for my life, as well as the style of way I like to climb peaks. You know,
Grizel (06:57):
Do you hear what I'm saying? Vera has such a unique perspective with climbing mountains. They have
made their own path, not only on the Colorado terrain, but as you'll hear their entire life.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
So I was born in like San Jose, California, and I lived there for six years. I don't really remember much of that, but basically I just remember like my backyard. I don't remember like any of my life really. Um, then when I was six, we moved across the country to Massachusetts to move to a little, two acre lot in the woods in this town called Princeton. I could just like walk around in my backyard. And like we had Vernal pools and all these little cool rivers and salamanders and weird animals and creatures. And uh, we got a dog, I think a year later her name was [inaudible]. She was like my best friend. We would just hang out, do all sorts of weird things, you know?
Grizel (07:55):
And at that point you were using different pronouns, right?
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Well, I never chose anything. Right. That's the whole point of growing up like trans or non binary. You just like exist the way that people tell you, you should, because you don't know better yet. You know, like as a six year old kid. Right. I was raised as a boy. Um, you know, uh, I never really like had a say in it, you know, I think like part of the reason why I feel like I never socialized that much as a child was because like every time I hung out with people, I was just like, this isn't a vibe, you know? I mean, I had a few friends that I liked, but like, I feel like a lot of it was kind of almost forced, you know, I would hang out with my friends if they wanted to like, do outdoor things with me. I don't think a lot of my best childhood memories involve other humans. You know what I mean? I think a lot of my best childhood memories just involve like hanging out with my dog, going in the woods and you know, doing weird things by myself.
Grizel (08:50):
Was it because you didn't feel like people understood you? Was it
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Something else? Yeah. I mean, there's like no pressure to be anybody when you're by yourself. Right. You just get to be yourself. It's so hard to just like constantly psychoanalyzing the presentation you're putting onto the world to try and pass as a person that you feel like you should be because you're raised. I felt like I should be more masculine my whole life. Right. So like, I would just consistently be like trying to put on this act, you know, this persona, that just, it was so unnatural and it's so tiring. So exhausting. If you hang out by yourself in the woods, I don't know. I mean, it's just like freedom, you know, my dog doesn't care who I am. The trees certainly don't care who I am. You know, like gender wise, I can just be myself.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
You may be thinking that Vera's discussing their gender, but there was much more to them than gender identity, which just so happened to resonate with my own story.
Speaker 3 (09:51): Agree.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
So at that time you were just feeling like, wow, I don't really, I don't really fit in anywhere. I mean, at least when I was a kid, when I didn't feel like I fit in my that's when probably my depression was like at its very highest, you know? Like I think my child that I did, I'm like, Oh my God, like I, I had the lowest self esteem in like, especially in my teens. And that's when I actually like, because I didn't have a lot of self confidence at that time. You know, I had my, I had suicidality, I had anxiety, I had depression and everyone just told me I was crazy that because I felt like I didn't fit anymore.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah. I think before my puberty kicked in, I don't know that it was like depression. I don't know what it was. I don't really remember knowing enough about mental health to really like try and put it in a place, but it's just like this feeling of and belonging. Right. But then once my body started having testosterone in it, it poisoned my brain's ability to function in a way that was very unpleasant and was very suicidal, very depressing, very anxiety, like super high anxiety, you know, in my teens, I did like a lot of self harm. It's just like Wells up inside of you and you'd just die as a 14 year old. You don't know how to deal with it. Right. And you're like, I don't want to live, but I'm too afraid to die. Right. It's like this whole overwhelming feeling. So you just keep trying to cope with it the best you can.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
You know? And if, I don't know, just feeling anything sometimes, like I just felt so numb in my whole, like, you know, I don't know, 12 to, I don't even know how old it was when that stopped happening. Yeah, no, for sure. There was a whole time there where it was just like, my brain was just, but what if we just died instead? But what if we just died instead? You know? And it's like so hard to just walk around with the weight, that weight on your, on your mind all the time. So like there is this whole like macho trying to be macho thing right now. You're not allowed to have feelings. Feelings are getting, um, you know, that's stupid. You're not allowed to do that. Like, I don't know. I'm like a 14 year old trying to be boy,
Grizel (12:05):
Very, I had a girlfriend throughout high school where they tried to open up, but was unable to fully do. So. I mean, how do you tell someone that you have chronic suicidality in my experience, most people don't know how to talk about it and especially don't know how to respond to it. Vera had a lot of pent up anger and anxiety, which of course they do. They're hiding who they truly are on a moment to moment basis. And like so many of us who are in a state of fear, they had a difficult time coping with it in healthy ways.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Well, it's really into like heavy metal and went to a lot of metal shows, marched and stuff. I feel like the healthiest outlet I had, which, you know, it was probably not that good besides, you know, nature. Obviously I think that's like one overlying factor in my life that I've always enjoyed them, you know,
solitude and nature. But, um, yeah, music has always been another big part too, for sure. So metal at the time was the manliest way of quote unquote to try and express some of those feelings in a way that wasn't suicidal.
Grizel (13:20):
I really can't imagine like feeling like, even if I didn't have a name, I don't even know. I wonder if it would be even more confusing because you couldn't even really identify what was going on inside. And you're just like, what am I feeling like something's off and not being able to identify that. How long did that last for you?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Um, I mean, I feel like it's was there like my whole life, right? Until I feel like the first time I really consciously, like it came to the conscious part of my mind. I was like maybe 20. I was in college and I was like taking this class with this professor film and race and gender study, like how race and gender are portrayed in film. And she like drew this massive pair of kits on one side of like this for like four whiteboard section, long thing. And on the other side, you drew a massive Dick and then she drew a big line between it. And she was like, this is gender. It's not this box or this box, it's a whole ass spectrum. Right. And then she drew like some fucking weird, like Dick Jina in the middle. And like, I was like, Holy shit. I could beat Dick China.
Grizel (14:31):
Holy shit. I can be Tichina.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
But like, my brain was like, Whoa, there's like a middle part. You know, like I don't have to be X or Y I could be, you know, XYZ or off the spectrum in a fucking, you know, North South totally nonlinear way. And so it was just like, like a revelation kind of almost, you know, but then just because it was there in my mind, doesn't mean that my brain figured it out. Then it took like five, five or six more years before it was like a thing that, you know, I like actually was able to verbalize and like intelligently be like, yes, I feel confident in this. You know?
Grizel (15:11):
So those six years,
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yep. Those were bad ones. Usually [inaudible]
Grizel (15:32):
We live in a world where gender is assumed. And for Vera, it was more than assumed it was placed on them and they never felt like they could belong to themselves. Vera would attempt to date other people just to find out that they were asexual, which is a person without sexual feelings or associations.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
Like my life is like a bend, like a parabola. So like it started off. Okay. Cause I was a kid and I didn't know what was going on yet. Like I had an internalized all the trauma. Um, and then like I hit that point, you
know, whereas my second, last year of college or whatever, and I was drinking all the time, I feel like that was like the very bottom point of the parabola, you know, the lowest point in my life. I feel like I was working at a bar. I was dating this girl who also worked at a different bar. I like live to like 200 yards away from the bar I worked at in a house with five other dudes who were all in the same automotive program as I was, we were all like the same year. It was really cool to have them.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
They were definitely like good emotional support. Especially with my friend, John, he's still like one of my really good friends, but like, it was just like so much alcohol and so little remembering and caring about my life. And it was just like this terrible suicidal fucking cycle of like, you know, go to school drunk from the night before or coming down, like maybe hung over, maybe drunk, not sure. Then go to work at the bar that I work at, then walk home or go hang out with that girl that I was dating at the bar. She works at like just drinking constantly library, like a six pack. Right. When I got off work within a half an hour, like I just chug them, you know? Yeah. I just remember like one day after like almost the end of my like second, last semester at college, not even being able to walk, to walk into my class, I was just like, so fucking done with everything.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
And I just laid in a field and just stared at the sky instead of going to my geography of Michigan and the great lakes class. Yeah. And it was like super hard. The teacher was way too passionate about, and it was like a 300 level class. And they wanted you to like, know all the soil types of every region of Michigan. I'm like, what kind of rocks were there and stuff. And I was like, you know, this would be really cool, but like my life is literally a disaster and I just want to die every day. So I can't find it the effort to care about this class. But yeah, it was like laying in that field. I have to do something, you know?
Grizel (17:56):
So you said that like, it was the lowest part of your life. What does low point mean for you and what did
it mean for you?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I feel like I had gotten to a point in my life where I had finished the journey that my parents wanted me to do. I didn't have any sense of purpose anymore. I ran out of things to do that meant anything, you know, because up to that point I had just been doing what I thought my parents wanted me to do, which is why I was going to school in Michigan for automotive in the first place, because my parents wanted me to do not because I wanted to, I wanted to stay in Massachusetts and keep dating that girl that I thought I was in love with for so long and work at the same shitty Italian restaurant. I was working at Boston tables and doing dishes. Cause I didn't care about life at all. You know what I mean? That was just like doing the things my parents wanted me to do.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
So get like came to a point where I was like, I'm here at college working to get this degree that I never want to use in my life. I have no ambitions for it. You know what I mean? Like I'm just out here. Cause my parents wanted me to be out here. You wouldn't bullshit. I was just like drinking myself in a constant cycle of alcohol. Like I would keep drinking, I would wake up, maybe not drink for five hours, start drinking at like lunchtime drive back to school from my apartment to school, with a beer open in my car while I was driving, you know, like it wasn't like I was making good decisions or having, you know, I was
just literally just living like for the sake of doing that thing that my parents wanted me to do with no goal or anything of what would come after.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
You know, I didn't have any like life vision. Like I reached the end of that rope and there was nothing below it, you know, but like the void. Okay. So I either climb back up shitty cliff that I somehow got down on this rope that I don't want to climb back up. Cause it leads me to help or I'd make my own path, you know, and it's going to be hard. So, but I feel like that's why it was the low point. You know what I mean? Cause it, like, I ran out of things to do for what I thought was I was supposed to be doing.
Grizel (20:08):
Where did you care so much about what your parents thought?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
I don't know. Why does anybody care? What their parents think? You know, I was like only what like 21 or whatever, you know, when I graduated college, I hadn't really like figured out that I could live for myself. So everything's telling you, this is what you're supposed to do. Right. So meanwhile, meanwhile, you know, there's like your own life that you're supposed to be doing, but nobody tells you to do that. They're just like, yeah, all your dreams, but do the dreams that we set out for you to follow, not your own actual dreams, but the dreams that we want.
Grizel (20:42):
They're had hit rock bottom, the lowest point of their life. Parabola. If you will,
Grizel (20:48):
A 21, they had graduated college and attempted to make their parents proud. One more time in Lansing,
Michigan,
Speaker 3 (20:56):
I signed that to go to school at Michigan state for mechanical engineering and get a master's degree. And my dad was like having the biggest direction of his life that way. And then I just dropped out instead of going, you know, I was like, fuck this. I don't want to go. I was working at Lebanese restaurant. I started growing weed. I stopped drinking. I started working at this dispensary in Lansing also at some point like a year later, but mostly I just hung out in my apartment. I didn't even like go outside that much. I did some hard work in Lansing, Michigan, and it was a lot of staying inside. A lot of just sitting there staring at my weed plants that I was growing. I'm petting my cat that I just got. Who's now sitting right next to me, still on my bed. And it was just like a lot of like just trying to figure out who I was and what I actually cared about in my life.
Grizel (21:46):
There has been a whole year working on themselves and after a lot of processing in questioning, they moved back in with their mom in Rhode Island. After their parents divorce, Vera had a good relationship with their mom who is a supportive figure in their family, their dad. However
Speaker 3 (22:04):
That if you're ever listening to this disrespect intended
Grizel (22:07):
At the age of 24, Vera tried psychedelic mushrooms for the first time in their life. Many people who describe psychedelic mushrooms often talk about this blissful, spiritual hippy dippy experience. But for Vera, it was something completely different.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
My mushroom experiences at the beginning were like a bitch slap in the face, get your life together. Who the fuck do you think you are? Like, you can't just be wasting your life with this BS. Like you've got to figure your shit out. You have things to do. You have a purpose. And it was just like, it was scary and overwhelming, but like so powerful and important.
Grizel (22:47):
A few mushroom trips at the age of 24 Vera took some time for themselves in the woods.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Yeah. Like just sitting there, staring at the Creek, like just like looking at the beauty of the world around me and just like being like, there's more to this than what you, what you've done. You know, I was really into like collecting glass. I'd always like wanted to do it. Being a pyromaniac as I have been, my whole life really liked the idea of playing with a torch and melting sand and making something like useful and permanent. It was like this whole thing with my self esteem and my ego. And like, it matter if you suck at it, cause like my whole thing was like, I don't want to do it and suck at it. You know? Like being a big baby, like you always suck at glass boy, when you start glassblowing, that's the whole point of it. Like the first time you blow glass, it's embarrassing.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
It's ridiculous. Your hands don't know how to do the thing because it's like a whole part of your brain. You've never used your muscles for it's so fun. Like it's so challenging. You know? So the day if I called up this glass studio in Rhode Island called fishbowl glass and like made a lesson and two weeks later I had a glassblowing lesson and then I was like addicted to it. I was like, Oh my God, this is so cool. Like I love doing this. This is amazing. This is the most important thing I've ever done with my life. Like be able to share this with people. And that really like was a huge moment in my life
Grizel (24:12):
Because you did something that was so challenging and something that was very intimidating too.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
And I did it for myself. Like that was like the first time I did something and I was like, this shit is for me
and me alone.
Grizel (24:27):
That's really powerful there. That was the first time he did something for you and you didn't care.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
And I was 25 years old, the whole fucking quarter century into existing,
Grizel (24:43):
As big as a victory was to choose themselves for the very first time. Healing is never linear. Like Vera said, life is a journey and the journey looked like a wide parabola with a bunch of bumps in the road. One thing I've learned about mental health over the years is that deep introspection takes a lot of work and takes a lot of energy.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Eventually. I don't know. It came to a point for sure, where I like just had like a serious mental health breakdown and I like drove to the same woods that I always went to that we just like put on some between the buried and me just screamed it out. It just like cried and you know, like ugly cried and like really got snotty and just like made an embarrassing mess of myself and like was like, okay, that's it. I'm going to Google gender therapists in Rhode Island and like make myself an appointment and like go try and figure this out. And that was like the moment, you know? And it all actually started. Cause my, my aunt, her husband was like said some shit. I like peed standing up and didn't put the toilet seat down. And he was like, what kind of gentleman does that?
Speaker 3 (26:07):
And I just like fucking triggered me so hard when he said gentlemen, like that word, I was just like, fuck. I just like had a mental breakdown and like just fucking went to the woods and just fucking cried it out. It's like, all right, I need to figure this out. I can't keep living like this. Yeah. I mean it basically, it basically felt like it was like coming to this head where it was like, all right. So I either can't live anymore or I can live as the person inside of me that I'm afraid to be. I think a lot of like trans people who've had that same, like will tell you it's really like a choice between life or death and it's not easy, but it's so powerful. Like if glass blowing was the first thing I did for myself, like this was the thing that I did where I really like grabbed hold of my whole bag of rice and it was my bag of rice again. And then I had to go back around and pick up all the grains and put them back in my bag of rice. But now it's as rice and not dead names, rice,
Grizel (27:09):
A huge misconception about therapy is that it will solve problems fast. But in actuality it often gets
worse before it gets better.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
So therapy was like really hard. At first I had a really good therapist in Rhode Island. She was like very supportive. It was just so nice to just unload all of these like weird conflicting emotions and thoughts. I've had my whole life and like go back and be like, I remember like this like time that I did this and you know, it's time that I did that. And like I used to steal my sister's clothes and wear them all the time. And like all these like weird gender affirming things that I used to do as a kid that like, I never really like conceptually, you know, put together whatever, got to finally unload. Yeah. It was really nice to like really just like without judgment. Yes. To just like let all that out.
Grizel (28:03):
Is that where a lot of your confidence began to grow? Is that where the parabola started going?
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Well, I mean, the parabola went up before this, but this is definitely like a, uh, it went up, it starts going up steeper, you know? Um, yeah, yeah, for sure. I feel like my therapist after like a year of going, she said to me, actually, one day, like the first day you came in here, your body language was just like a person who was absolutely embarrassed and ashamed of themselves. Cause like I used to just like sit hunched over like this just like curled up as tiny as I could. Like, don't look at me. I'm not a person. Like, I'm not real. I am not here. You know, I don't take up space. Like don't exist. Ignore me. And like a year later she was like, you come in, you like, sit, like you're proud of yourself. It's just like your body language has changed.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
And just like hearing that was like, yeah. I mean, I guess, yeah. Like I am a person I am confident now. Like, um, I'm proud to go out in public and be myself. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care if people stare at me or like, what gender is that person? Whatever. Like, I actually kind of enjoyed that. I think it's funny, but uh, that's a whole different story or like when people ma'am, sir, ma'am me at work or whatever. They're like, ma'am sir. Ma'am and I'm like, yeah, yeah, both are mom. Don't worry about it.
Grizel (29:24): Oh, I love you. So,
Speaker 3 (29:28):
But then, um, you know, it wasn't like day one after going to therapy, I was like all figured out, you know, obviously like I still have the over the overwhelming and scary task of like coming out to people and stuff, which is like a whole scary and fucking long process. Like it's like a never ending process too, because every time you meet somebody, it's like, you've got to start over again. You know? It's like, you get better at it, you know? But, uh, is it painful? I mean, yes and no, I wasn't afraid to tell my mom really. Like I knew that she would be like as good as she can be, which is loving and accepting as best she can. Like, she hasn't necessarily like done all the research or hadn't at that point, you know? But like at least I was like, she'll love me and accept me still.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
You know? And that's, that's like important. Um, and my sister I think was pretty easy. I think I came out to her like basically right around the same time, but like coming out to my dad was definitely scary. Um, that was also like one of the last times I ever talked to him. So he called me like a few days later and like, mis-gendered me. And like gave me his old nickname for me. Like that. I hate like, just like was like saying shit. That was just like, Oh yeah, I still love you as a son and blah, blah, blah, all this shit. And I was like, I never want to talk to you again. Like who, the, how the fuck you going to say that to me, that's not what you're supposed to say. That's the exact wrong thing to say. You know,
Speaker 4 (31:02):
You process losing like a parent because I mean, it's, it's, I think it's more than just coming out. It's it's coming out with everything, your mental health, your everything. You're like, it's such a whole entire body mind soul experience that your dad is just like, yeah, not for me. How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Well, I mean, I don't even think my dad like considered it a mental health thing or anything like that, you know? Um, I think all he cared about was the fact that he was losing his son. No, you're not fucking, you never had a son in the first place. You had a child, right? You didn't have a gender, you had a child, a human child. My dad was always like a really hard figure in my life. So it wasn't like we had a great relationship. I feel like. So it was just one of those things where I was like, you know, I could work on building a relationship with him, but is it worth the effort? Like is dragging his a hundred pounds up a mountain going to be worth it? You know what I mean? Like, do I need to do that? Or should I just climb up the mountain on my own without his weight dragging me down? You know, like
Speaker 4 (32:10):
A strong person though. Cause like, I think I would struggle with that honestly. Like as much as I want to say that, like I'm such a people pleaser with my parents and like, I just choose not to tell them like the full truth of things, because I know they're not going to understand. And I know they're not supportive of that, you know? Like to be able to like put that kind of boundary out and like cut people off. Granted, I, I hear you say that, like you had a hard relationship with your dad anyway, but it's still really fucking
Grizel (32:40):
To cut someone out that has been in your life in some sort of way for that many years, you know? Like
that's, that's the harder decision for sure.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
I mean, it was, it wasn't like, it was like the easiest decision I've ever made, but it was just like, it was one of those things where I was just, like I said, like, you can just feel the weight and it's like, every time that I would try and have a, like an interaction with my dad, it was just horrible. And it just like, it just left me feeling like more uncomfortable and less valid every time. Yeah. And you've done,
Grizel (33:12):
You're like, I've done this for like 25 years. I'm kind of over.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
Yeah. And you're like, when it's self harm to talk to you, like it's no longer worth it. You know, like I'm done. Self-harming like I had stopped cutting myself three or four years before that that was the last time I ever self harm. So it was just one of those decisions where it was like, you know, you, you don't want to have to make it. But like when somebody is not making the strides to at least try, it becomes like a, like a more obvious decision, you know? It's like, you're no longer addressing me as the person. I am. You're no longer respecting me as a human being at this point. Like, that's what it came down to. You know?
Grizel (33:50):
Like you don't help me become me. Right. Like, which is like one of the most toxic things that you could
do to someone.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, exactly. Like holding somebody back from being who they should be is the worst thing you could do because it was like, now you're just disrespecting as a human. And at that level, when I feel
disrespected as a human, like, I don't know, like there is some part of me that just like instantly does want to cut you out. Maybe it's because I'm an Aquarius that Aquariuses will cut you out of your life. And in fact, in a second hope I'm not on that list. Just kidding. Well, you know, it's just one thing you just got to consider is don't piss me off.
Grizel (34:37):
You know, so many of us have something that's different about us. For me, I have chronic depression and as much as I've tried to like, pretend that that's not an existing part of me, it's a part of me, a very big part of me. And you know what, as much as I hate how much it really brings me down at times, it's probably one of the biggest reasons why I have a huge heart is because I can hear people and I can understand people and like, see people like not, not just like for what they are on Instagram and all these bullshit. Like I see someone and I'm like, no, like there's more to you than that. And there's so much underneath what you are portraying. You know what I mean? Vera started working on self preservation, which is what got them into hiking. These extremely difficult mountains.
Speaker 3 (35:28): It's in Colorado.
Grizel (35:31):
One of the things I admire the most about you is just your absolute passion to do really difficult things.
And like I've hiked
Speaker 4 (35:38):
With you. So I know that you're, you don't, you don't mess around like you are, you're going to do all of the hard things and you're going to keep it and you're going to enjoy it the whole entire time. I'm reminded of the hike that we did in the snow, your name when we, we climbed it and we climbed the same fucking section twice
Speaker 3 (35:59):
The birds, I thought we couldn't go that way.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
Yeah. But you, if I had been by myself, I would have been absolutely angry. I would have been livid. And
you saw how many times I fell, like,
Speaker 3 (36:12): yea.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
And like, you just have like the best energy when it comes to doing these things. Like why, what do you
get from climbing these mountains? What, like, what energy is that?
Speaker 3 (36:26):
That's like a really good question. You know, I feel like there's so many reasons. Part of it is like a cause they're there and they're beautiful, right? Like I just see a mountain and I'm like that, that mountain in
particular, I find various static. And I just want to like, see it from the whole part of it. I want to explore it and just like become a part of it. You know? Then there's also like this huge part of it. That's just like, when I'm out there, I feel like I'm so busy using all of my senses and like really being a human being, like just trying to use my body and connect with it that like, I really feel the most human I ever feel when I'm doing that. There's a lot of suck in it. Um, that's what my favorite mountain climbing expressions is embrace the suck because climbing 14,000 foot peaks is not like pleasant.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
It's not like 75 and study with five degree breezes up there, like five mile an hour breezes. It's like 32 degrees and snowing and 60 mile an hour wind gusts and stuff. So, you know, you don't climb mountains necessarily because it's like the most physically enjoyable sensation in the world, right? Like your lungs hurt your legs hurt. My heart never feels so light up. Whereas when I'm up there, you know what I mean? And my body is just like, I am in my body. I am connected to it. I'm not disassociated from it in any way. Like my mind body soul is like one unified piece again, when I'm out there.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
And why is that so important to you?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Part of growing up trans is being disassociated your whole life. Your brain is telling you one thing and you're trying to do another thing with your body. Um, and they're trying to go two separate directions, you know? So I feel like just any time I get to connect with my body and like really be a whole part of it is really enjoyable. You're constantly in a rush. You have to go to work, you have to do this, you have to do that. You got bills to pay. It's like all this stuff, right. It just like Wells up as anxiety. And like, you know, there's only so much I can do to manage my anxiety and like a day to day where I have to go to work. Um, cause work is like where anxiety from? I feel like, you know, I go to work and I get anxiety. I get anxiety on my way to work. And then I'm anxious about what happened on my way home when I'm in the mountains. None of that matters. Like the world's not even like the rest of the, world's not a real place. All that matters is like the incredible scenery around me. And I'm just alive. I'm just there, you know, mind, soul, body, heart, everything. It's just all unified into one moment, you know? And it's just one continuous moment that just melts through time and space
Speaker 4 (39:06):
Because mental health has been such an unspoken topic for centuries. It is difficult to share what is actually going on inside of this, even though like Vera said, most of us are outside for our own mental health in some form or fashion. I asked Vera what they thought needed to change in the outdoor space in regards to mental health.
Speaker 3 (39:25):
Well, I feel so. I feel like a lot of people that spend their time doing outdoors things, you know, um, it's obviously like our escape from the rest of reality, right? We're out there trying to better our mental health. I feel like that's like 70% of it. Right? Cause like if people just wanted exercise, they would go to the gym and not actually leave the city. Like the reason why people go out into the wilderness to experience nature is, I mean, it just like humanizes you. Right? And so I feel like we're all out there for our mental health. Nobody talks about it. Right. Nobody actually is like out there, like saying, Oh yeah,
like I was fucking depressed. That's why I went need to go for a hike. Sure. People say it, but it's not like, why usually that's not why you hear it.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Right. I met somebody, um, named Kristin climbing Pike's peak a couple of weeks ago. She met me and like, even without me introducing my gender, like my pronouns and stuff, she like asked me my pronouns. It just was like, so validating and just like really cool to meet, like somebody that was like genuinely like a human being. So cool. And so validating to be like, welcome in that space with somebody, you know what I mean? That I had ever met and just like feel safe. Like instantly when people ask me my pronouns, it just like a whole like wall in my existence comes down.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
Just openness about mental health in general. Right. Just being, seeing people as humans and for who they are is such a, such a big deal. When I did the 80 last year, I really struggled with opening up with people because it just seems like, well, I was really depressed when I was on the Haiti and I really struggled because it rained every single day. And I hate the rain. And I remember there was like a few weeks where like my partner wasn't talking to me, like, because he was so busy and I was so, so lonely and I was trying to find like a group of people to hike with, but I couldn't stop crying. And every single time I would feel like those intense emotions, I would kind of like hide. And then finally I had the courage to tell someone that I was depressed and telling someone that was so hard for me and way they handled.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
It was terrible. Not only did they kind of drop me, but like I told them about like my hesitation with like alcohol and like how it really was a triggering experience for me. And then they would just go on to like continue to drink. And it was just like this weird like experience of like, wow, people don't really accept my mental health or my depression, or like really even want to talk about it at all. So many of us are out there to experience something with our mental health. So why aren't we talking about it more like what you had with Kristen, must've been such a cool experience partially because that is a rare experience. No one really embraces each other in the outdoor space. Or we just talk about all of these highlights or these really big, significant moments. Like I'd climbed this, but like, we don't talk about how difficult it was to get there in the first place, the anxiety that you had leading up to it that made that place, such a beautiful place for you in the first place. Like we don't talk about how stressed you are about work or how anxious you are about work. And that's why you're here. We just go to these moments and skip over this huge storyline and this huge timeline of hurt and pain because people don't know how to talk about it. People feel uncomfortable talking about it. People don't know how to respond.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
Well, I mean, part of it right, is like, I, I never want to just put that energy into somebody's life. Like if they're not like open and willing to accept it, you know? Um, and it's like one of those things, right? Like when you have a crush on somebody and you're too afraid to ask them out, you know, it's like one of those like awkward, like hesitations where you're like, wait, can I, can I bring this up? Like you said, like you were depressed and crying every day for so long on the 80 before you finally brought it up. And then you're afraid of that. Like rejection, if you do bring it up and they just are like, Oh, you have mental health issues. Like, fuck you, you know, like, I don't want to talk to you. It makes it so hard to like talk about, but it's like as a society, not just in the outdoors, but just as a whole like society, like, we don't
really address mental health in our culture. Like at all, really, you know, like, except for take this pill, you know, to solve your depression. Like, that's basically like all you get, like when people say, Oh, I'm going to a therapist, 50% of the time you get a reaction, like, why what's wrong with you? Like, as if you're like a fucked up person, you know, like it's like most of us need to see a therapist. I would say everybody needs to see a therapist. Like probably once a month, our whole lives, just because of the way life is, you know,
Speaker 4 (44:08):
Like, why are we trying to pretend like life is easy. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
It's like this whole human thing. Like you said, like seeing through the bullshit of people's Instagram, to who they actually are, like, it's like this whole thing where our whole life, I feel like is just the keeping up of appearances of like, Oh my life is perfect. And like, I've got it figured out. And it's like, none of us really do. You know, it's just like it being comfortable with somebody to a level where people are willing to admit that they don't have it all figured out and they're have issues and they have fears and doubts and anxieties and stress and shit. And it's like, I don't know. I feel like just in a day to day life, we need to be better at having that conversation, you know? And once we're better in our day to day life, like it's like, it would be so much easier to meet people and have that conversation with them.
Grizel (45:00):
Fair is right. Talking about mental health is a systemic issue. As individuals. We fear appearing weak in front of one another, which then leads to hiding feelings that are completely normal to feel when I was a kid. And honestly, even as an adult, I was told I was too much that it was too emotional, a drama queen. And if my attitude continued, I would eventually be beaten one day, that's a direct quote. These are statements that feed the stigma because in reality, I was just a kid that was depressed and just needed help. I failed to hear that I was sensitive that I was empathetic, kind, a good listener. And overall I had a good heart to the person that is struggling with their own mental health, who wants to climb these mountains that are scared to, um, because of their own like emotional baggage disclaimer, like not suicidality or anything that would actually get them into harm, but like to the depressed person or to the super anxious person or to the person that's going through a transition, um, who's just struggling. What would you tell that person
Speaker 3 (46:25):
First and foremost, like, I would really like to tell people that like, you know, life is a journey and like what happened on a bad day? Doesn't define reality, you know? And like, don't let each small thing weigh down your mind and like distract you from what is the like incredible beauty of life and the journey that we are on. Because like some days it just feels like everything's just kicking you down. And it's so hard to like escape the perspective that is so like closed into yourself. For me, depression feels like a very like closed in and isolated feeling. You know, being able to sort of like remove your mind from that, like a little depressive bubble that you've sort of separated from reality in instead of existential dread or angst or something, it's like existential freedom. It's like, if nothing matters, like I might as well just do what I want and like, do what makes me happy.
Grizel (47:24):
Oh yeah. Everything, nothing matters. Everything matters.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Yeah, exactly. It's like, so if nothing really matters,
Speaker 5 (47:30):
Like then I can do what makes me the happiest because that's what matters. All I have. All I know that is real is what I feel inside of me and this life that I'm living. So I might as well make my journey, the journey I want it to be in just like keep making decisions on a day to day basis, small micro decisions that make me happier as a person or make me feel more fulfilled or make me feel like I'm going in a direction I want to be going in. You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (47:59):
Even that, even if that means like accepting your depression or accepting like the darkness inside of you,
like just accepting who you are in every moment.
Speaker 5 (48:07):
Oh yeah, for sure. Like, like going back earlier, like I said, talking about the day that I decided to go to therapy, like it wasn't like a easy day. It was a very angry screamy, tearful, snotty, ugly cry day. But like,
it was such a powerful decision, you know what I mean? And it was like a decision of self betterment for sure. You know? And it's like, I feel like if you look at it from a harm reduction point of view, like just trying to continuously make decisions that are like, this is less harmful to me, you know, like coming from like a suicidal, like depressive mindset, growing up, most of it, like when I switched that transition from like, how can I harm myself to most, to like, how can I harm myself? The least identify the bad, the identify, the negative identified like the, the heavy, the, I don't know, depressing dark ness, you know, like identify it. And then when you know it's name, then you have power over it. You know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (49:06):
It's not who you are. It's just a part of your process.
Speaker 5 (49:09):
Right? Exactly. And it's like, just, just being able to like point out internally in my own brain function, like, Oh yeah, I'm having an anxious or depressed day to day. Like I should go do the harm reduction thing that makes me feel the best. You know, like some days I know I don't have what it takes to climb mountains because I just don't feel it I'm too anxious or too depressed. And I just know that like, I don't have what it takes, but I still love to go for a drive. So I'll just go drive into the mountains and just go look at them. Because just looking at mountains does something to my soul that just like lightens it. And just like, I don't know if mountains can exist. Right. Who put them there? There's no logic to it. They're just gorgeous, weird things that happen because our earth is a magical place.
Speaker 5 (49:52):
Right. And there's such powerful entities, just looking at them, just like, makes me feel so empowered as a human sometimes just like to keep trying to exist. You know? Like knowing that they keep existing for no reason, but to just to exist because they're just there. Right. And I'm just here just because I'm existing. Right. So I might as well do what is best for me because I'm here doing it. But it was like, I had to identify it first before I could even get there. So to the viewer, who's listening, who's struggling. Don't give up, keep making decisions that enhance your life in some sort of way. Or you feel like they're gonna
have positive outcomes in the long run. Don't be afraid to make the hard choice or take the hard route to get there. There's no easy way out of mental health. Um, I feel like you have to climb the mountain. You can't just drive to the top. So like really be prepared to go and do that work. Like you have to take each step to get there. You have to climb over each Boulder. You have to cross every river cord, every stream. There's no easy way, but like it's so worth it when you get there. You know, the view from the top is really good. I think that you finished the podcast.
Grizel (51:10):
Thanks so much to Vera for your time, passion and honesty. In this conversation, it takes a lot of courage to speak on issues that are unspoken on a day to day basis. And people like Vera are giving the hard work to de-stigmatize mental health so that more and more people can have conversations like these we'll see you next week. So in the meantime, consider leaving us a review on Apple podcast or anywhere else you listen. It's a fast freeway to support the show and it truly does make a difference in helping other people find us. And if you're wanting to interact with more of this amazing community, make sure to find us on social media. We're on Instagram at underneath it all pod and on Facebook, including our Facebook group for community questions, stories, and support, which you can find by searching me on Instagram at underscore G R I Z L underscore for mental health Mondays, where I talk about the balance of my personal life and mental health and true music is created by a two person
band, which includes myself. You can find our music on Spotify by searching passive flora underneath it all as a production of Ravel creative until next time we're hoping you all are safe and healthy out there. Okay.